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  • #76
    Originally posted by geogymn View Post
    I know this might be a naïve question but.....Can't they develop a more efficient process to turn coal into energy?
    I am no expert, but coal can be converted into synthetic gas (syngas) to improve efficiency. Typically, and in the past, pulverized coal was burned to heat water to create steam. This steam was directed into a steam turbine. The steam turbine drives a generator, and the generator creates electrical power.

    In a syngas plant, the coal is converted into gas. This gas is used by a gas turbine, and the gas turbine drives a generator. Higher burn temperatures can be used so efficiency rises.

    If carbon capture is employed, efficiency drops rapidly and goes below the first example described. This is due to the large amount of energy required to capture, store and compress the carbon dioxide.

    A new type of combined cycle plant combines a steam turbine and a gas turbine to drive a generator. Syngas is used in the gas turbine and waste heat is used to boil water for the steam turbine. This type of plant has the best efficiency to date (assuming no carbon capture).

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    • #77
      Using plasma converters, most matter can be turned into syngas. The by product can also be commodities in the building trades. The added bonus with this type of energy generation is not just matter like coal, but even refuse can be feed stock for the generators. No more landfills. The technology is there, but old fashioned burning is still cheaper. End subsidies on the oil and gas producers and there is more than enough $ to research other sustainable technologies.
      Last edited by DuctTape; 03-22-2014, 01:28 PM. Reason: fixing typos from phone post
      "There's a whisper on the night-wind, there's a star agleam to guide us, And the Wild is calling, calling . . . let us go." -from "The Call of the Wild" by Robert Service

      My trail journal: DuctTape's Journal

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      • #78
        Some more evidence that the warm up between 1975 and 1998 was not unusual. Since 1850 there were 2 other warm periods which rose just as much or lasted at least as long. The previous 2 periods were caused by natural variation. Keep in mind that during the current 15 year flat period CO2 has increased at a much faster rate than 1975 to 1998 despite the US and EU drastically reducing their output.

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        • #79
          Interesting info. Also worth noting that long terms graphs (Neil posted on another thread here some time ago) appear to show that historically, CO2 increases actually FOLLOW temperature increases. So at this point, despite the passionate "we know" positions that are being taken, no one actually knows what increased man made CO2 does to the climate. It's a first time experiment.

          But I have long believed we should work our way out of fossil fuels for two reasons, neither of which has anything to do with climate:

          1. Petroleum is a very useful chemical precursor to make many materials on which modern society depends. Burning it is not its best use.

          2. The free market allocates resources well EXCEPT in cases where a limited resource will eventually run out. And even though it's not as close as shrill voices would like you to think, fossil fuel is limited and will eventually run out.

          So, this is a case where we need to intervene to develop alternatives. Unfortunately, our people are stupid and our government is corrupt, so our intervention has all been towards technologies that don't work, but do funnel cash into campaign contributors' pockets.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by TCD View Post
            But I have long believed we should work our way out of fossil fuels for two reasons, neither of which has anything to do with climate:

            1. Petroleum is a very useful chemical precursor to make many materials on which modern society depends. Burning it is not its best use.

            2. The free market allocates resources well EXCEPT in cases where a limited resource will eventually run out. And even though it's not as close as shrill voices would like you to think, fossil fuel is limited and will eventually run out.
            100% agreed. I tried to say the same thing awhile back but didn't put it anywhere near as succinctly.
            Scooting here and there
            Through the woods and up the peaks
            Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


            "Pushing the limits of easy."™

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            • #81
              OT, interesting sculpture

              This sculpture by Issac Cordal in Berlin is called "Politicians discussing global warming."
              Attached Files
              Oscar Wilde:Work is the curse of the drinking class

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              • #82
                Syngas or producer gas can be made by burning any kind of fuel and depriving the oxygen. Of course coal will produce higher BTU content. By depriving the oxygen the feedstock is broken down into different compounds including methane, butane, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and others. The gas then needs to be scrubbed to eliminate contaminants.

                Wood chips will produce producer gas without the undesirable by-products of coal. Wood chips can and do run generators. Bio-gasification can be made from just about anything including human and animal waste. Why isn't it used more? I refer you to Redhawk's statements about basic greed. The oil companies really don't want to build different infrastructures than they already have in place because fossil fuels already make them big bucks.

                Ethanol made from something other than a product that is consumed could also prove feasible. Ethanol can be made from switchgrass and other crops that can be grown on less than desirable farmland. Sugar beets can be easily made into ethanol but who is willing to "bite the bullet" so to speak. Hydrogen can be produced a number of ways but needs a new way of getting to the consumer. Right now the big new thing is CNG which is being made available to private companies who invest in the facilities to fuel internal combustion engines, and convert the vehicles to use it. It is cheaper than gasoline, does not pollute the air and we have plenty of it. Vehicles that run on it have many less problems than those which run on gasoline or diesel. There are many advantages to run cars and trucks on CNG and they can also transfer over to gasoline if needed.

                I am not advocating the discontinuation of using coal just recommending better ways to convert it into fuel which does not contribute to more environmental problems. Getting companies to change is difficult. Getting consumers to change is more difficult.
                Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by randomscooter View Post
                  Originally posted by TCD View Post
                  But I have long believed we should work our way out of fossil fuels for two reasons, neither of which has anything to do with climate:

                  1. Petroleum is a very useful chemical precursor to make many materials on which modern society depends. Burning it is not its best use.

                  2. The free market allocates resources well EXCEPT in cases where a limited resource will eventually run out. And even though it's not as close as shrill voices would like you to think, fossil fuel is limited and will eventually run out.
                  100% agreed. I tried to say the same thing awhile back but didn't put it anywhere near as succinctly.
                  I intended to couple the post (quoted above) that I made earlier in this thread with a recommendation for the film "Pandora's Promise".

                  See also pandoraspromise.com.
                  Scooting here and there
                  Through the woods and up the peaks
                  Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


                  "Pushing the limits of easy."™

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Schultzz View Post
                    Getting companies to change is difficult. Getting consumers to change is more difficult.
                    The formula is fairly simple:
                    1. Offer an alternative at a price point that is profitable.
                    2. Double the price of fossil fuels over the alternative.
                    Scooting here and there
                    Through the woods and up the peaks
                    Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


                    "Pushing the limits of easy."™

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Shultzz, besides gasification technologies to produce syngas, have you read any more about using plasma conversion? The plasma conversiuon doesn't require fuel as a commodity (coal or wood) but can use almost anything as its feedstock. Most startups are trying to get a foothold by "selling" it first as a waste disposal system and the syngas is a by-product. One such company which describes the process is: http://www.isescorp.com/SERVICES/Fac...ONVERSION.aspx
                      "There's a whisper on the night-wind, there's a star agleam to guide us, And the Wild is calling, calling . . . let us go." -from "The Call of the Wild" by Robert Service

                      My trail journal: DuctTape's Journal

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                      • #86
                        "Make it profitable and they will come"
                        "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by DuctTape View Post
                          Shultzz, besides gasification technologies to produce syngas, have you read any more about using plasma conversion? The plasma conversiuon doesn't require fuel as a commodity (coal or wood) but can use almost anything as its feedstock. Most startups are trying to get a foothold by "selling" it first as a waste disposal system and the syngas is a by-product. One such company which describes the process is: http://www.isescorp.com/SERVICES/Fac...ONVERSION.aspx
                          Plasma gasification technology generally consists of 5 stages:
                          1) Feedstock handling, shredder;
                          2) Gasification by means of plasma torches fueled by air or oxygen. High residence times within the reactor ensure tars are cracked and minimize particulates from exiting with syngas stream;
                          3) Gas cooling, compressing. The temperature of the syngas when it exits the gasifier is ~1,000- 1,200⁰C, it is
                          immediately quenched to temperatures below 400 ⁰C
                          4) Syngas clean-up (mercury and sulfur removal;
                          5) Product preparation (power, fuel, chemicals




                          Langit99 menawarkan berbagai permainan slot gacor hari ini dengan winrate tinggi. Daftar slot88 online gampang menang dan nikmati sensasi judi online terbaik.
                          Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by redhawk View Post
                            "Make it profitable and they will come"
                            Hawk, I'm guessing that your statement is in response to my earlier post...
                            Originally posted by randomscooter View Post
                            The formula is fairly simple:
                            1. Offer an alternative at a price point that is profitable.
                            2. Double the price of fossil fuels over the alternative.
                            I'm not sure how to interpret your statement, so I'll expand upon my own post and you can let me know if I am understanding your meaning correctly.

                            Perhaps the day will come when the profit motive no longer drives our socio-economic system. If your statement was an expression of disdain for our current system, then I respect it. But in the meantime, if we are to tackle and solve some of the pressing problems of our times, it is most likely that it will occur within our system's current framework. With that as a given, it is reasonable that business should expect to make a reasonable profit on any product they sell.

                            And perhaps that was your point. Indeed, "make it profitable and they will come" is exactly the message that will catalyze the change to new energy sources. Other energy sources are available to replace fossil fuels. As a gross over-simplification (perhaps), the main barrier to this happening is that the resulting product will not be competitive with the price of fossil fuels. So energy developers and suppliers are reluctant to pour their full resources into the necessary development (the science, the infrastructure, etc).

                            The obvious solution (to me at least) is to raise the price of fossil fuels to the point where the alternatives become the product of preference. And that is happening. We all gripe and moan about the ever-rising cost of fuel, and the exorbitant profits being raked in by the oil companies. Perhaps the oil companies are investing some of those profits in new technologies, or perhaps they really are just plain greedy. Perhaps a bit of both. I'll leave the cynicism to others. But regardless of their motivations, the fact is that the rising oil prices are making alternatives more attractive, and that is a very good thing.
                            Scooting here and there
                            Through the woods and up the peaks
                            Random Scoots awaits (D.P.)


                            "Pushing the limits of easy."™

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                            • #89
                              Another example of a change in attitude towards open discussion.

                              "A BBC executive in charge of editorial standards has ordered program editors not to broadcast debates between climate scientists and global warming sceptics.
                              Alasdair MacLeod claimed that such discussions amount to ‘false balance’ and breach an undertaking to the Corporation’s watchdog, the BBC Trust.
                              Mr MacLeod, head of editorial standards and compliance for BBC Scotland, sent an email on* February 27 to 18 senior producers and editors, which has been obtained by The Mail on Sunday.
                              It reads: ‘When covering climate change stories, we should not run debates / discussions directly between scientists and sceptics.
                              If a program does run such a discussion, it will... be in breach of the editorial guidelines on impartiality."

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by redhawk View Post
                                "Make it profitable and they will come"
                                Originally posted by randomscooter View Post
                                Hawk, I'm guessing that your statement is in response to my earlier post...


                                I'm not sure how to interpret your statement, so I'll expand upon my own post and you can let me know if I am understanding your meaning correctly.
                                I just like to reference "Field of Dreams" whenever I get a chance
                                "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

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