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Moose River Plains controversy

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  • #16
    I have to admit I have no idea whether the ADK is essentially a High Peaks/Urban type organization or not.

    However, I do know they have taken the US govt. to court regarding the Clean Air Act, with the result of reducing Mercury poisoning within the Blue Line. I would think that fishermen, duckhunters, birders and paddlers can all appreciate the results of that.

    Here's an example.

    Someone mentioned closing the road to Lake Lila. Now that would cause a stir! I can just imagine the thread we'd have here.
    The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

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    • #17
      As concerns the ADK.

      The threads here area microcosm of what any organization of government bureau has to deal with.

      look at the back and forth, sometimes contentious that takes place when you talk about opening up or closing something, allowing or banning something. It all depends on what are particular interests or passions on.

      So for each of us, our opinions of the ADK, the DEC, The APA, The Sierra Club, the NRA, etc has to do with what they are doing for us as individuals. 75 - 80% may favor us, but God forbid they come out on the other side of an issue that we have a passion for, and they no longer have our support. And when I say WE, I certainly include ME.

      Unless you have a group that favors everything you believe in and opposes everything you don't, then it will never get 100% support of it's members and certainly not a lot of support from it's non members. The reason that an organization like the NRA has such a large and loyal member base is because it's 100% pro gun. That's why it is so successful. (The reason I cite the NRA is because it's the most visible of all the specialized self interest groups, there are hundreds of others not as well known). But of course there is a great deal of Polarization between it and various people who support different types of legislation that limits guns, ammo, or people who for whatever reason oppose hunting, etc.

      So in other groups where there is a cross section of people who have their own interests, as someone said, "You can't please all of the people all of the time". So it's really a no win situation for the groups.

      I support neither the Sierra Club nor the ADK because in my opinion they have skirted some issues and advocated others based solely on how they think it will effect their membership and the financial support that they receive, as opposed to the principles of the issues. Some of those choices have been counter to what I as an individual would have wished so I choose not to support them with my membership or dues.

      In the case of government bureaus, etc all too often they are opposed solely because people do not like being told what they have to do. of course they fail to realize that the regulation became necessary because a number of people failed to do the right thing or , knowingly did the wrong the things. It then gets compounded when some groups, rather then speak out against and condemn the behavior of one of their own, circle the wagons and make excuses or claim they are being unfairly singled out.

      In most cases it's not an organizational problem, or a government problem, it's a human problem because we want everything we want and are not willing to compromise or sacrifice anything to get it.

      Look at how many times individuals here will agree on most things and yet certain topics will turn them against each other.

      It's Americans nature.

      Hawk
      "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

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      • #18
        Originally posted by redhawk View Post
        In most cases it's not an organizational problem, or a government problem, it's a human problem because we want everything we want and are not willing to compromise or sacrifice anything to get it.

        Look at how many times individuals here will agree on most things and yet certain topics will turn them against each other.
        Well said.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Neil View Post
          Someone mentioned closing the road to Lake Lila. Now that would cause a stir! I can just imagine the thread we'd have here.
          Sounds like a great idea to me. Did anyone go into Lila when it was first opened to the public? The road was not open to vehicles, but you could hike it. My wife and I did that, the spring that Nehasane Great Camp Lodge was razed. We had made plans the previous season to hike in during the spring to see the camp, only just before going did we learn that the camp had been destroyed. We counted 13 chimneys with multi-floor fireplaces still standing amongst the charred rubble. It was a spooky sight. It was a bit of a walk to get there, but why not?
          "Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Wldrns View Post
            Sounds like a great idea to me. Did anyone go into Lila when it was first opened to the public? The road was not open to vehicles, but you could hike it. My wife and I did that, the spring that Nehasane Great Camp Lodge was razed. We had made plans the previous season to hike in during the spring to see the camp, only just before going did we learn that the camp had been destroyed. We counted 13 chimneys with multi-floor fireplaces still standing amongst the charred rubble. It was a spooky sight. It was a bit of a walk to get there, but why not?
            Wldrns,
            Not to stray too far fron the topic, but my wife and I and some friends drove in to the Lake Lila parking area and camped on Lila there the summer before the camp was razed!! The year was 1983. Our friends were too tired to paddle from our site to the lodge, saying they would check it out the next time we visited Lila. My wife and I paddled across and checked out every single building...
            We also went back the following year, and the scene was as you describe...but just one chimney and much rubble.

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            • #21
              Can't close the Lila Rd. That's how the private landowners at Nehasane Lake get there, AFAIK.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by dundee View Post
                Can't close the Lila Rd. That's how the private landowners at Nehasane Lake get there, AFAIK.
                You can't put a couple of boulders in the road, but you can simply put a lock on the gate that only the Nehasane people and the DEC has keys to. My understanding is that the DEC keeps that gate locked during the winter and mud season, although they and the landowners can use the road if they want.

                I was just pointing out the Lila road as a much more egregious example of "rule bending" that results in Wilderness (thats with a capital W to indicate that I'm referring to the SLMP classification) being significantly compromised. My personal preferences aside, I'm not going to argue that that exception should be ended!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by fisher39 View Post
                  I was just pointing out the Lila road as a much more egregious example of "rule bending" that results in Wilderness (thats with a capital W to indicate that I'm referring to the SLMP classification) being significantly compromised. My personal preferences aside, I'm not going to argue that that exception should be ended!
                  The Lila access road is entirely on private land until about 100 yards before the parking area. There is no rule-bending involved here, unless you're complaining about that 100 yards.

                  Originally posted by DSettahr View Post
                  I wonder- does the ADK ever poll it's member base before choosing a stance on issues like this? (Serious question) Sometimes I get the sense that opinions expressed by the ADK might not accurately reflect the views of the members of the organization as a whole.
                  My understanding is that ADK is run as something like a dictatorship, at least as far as choosing their positions. The dictator can be swayed, but if he doesn't agree, it doesn't happen. Like a "real" dictatorship, that has its pluses and minuses.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    So, I'm gathering that mountain biking would still be allowed on the Otter Brook truck trail, but will no longer be allowed on Indian Lake Road?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Justin View Post
                      So, I'm gathering that mountain biking would still be allowed on the Otter Brook truck trail, but will no longer be allowed on Indian Lake Road?
                      Based on the mountain bike trail map linked from DEC's site here (direct link to map here), Indian Lake Road would remain the wilderness boundary, and would be open to mountain biking. It looks like it's a proposed mountain bike route actually.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Thanks Colden46.

                        Biking, hiking, or otherwise... I can't wait to return to that area at the end of Indian Lake Road and beyond.... absolutely amazing country back in there!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Justin View Post
                          Thanks Colden46.

                          Biking, hiking, or otherwise... I can't wait to return to that area at the end of Indian Lake Road and beyond.... absolutely amazing country back in there!
                          agreed.
                          Backpacking: An extended form of hiking in which people carry double the amount of gear they need for half the distance they planned to go in twice the time it should take. ~Author Unknown

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by top Ramen View Post
                            agreed.
                            was just there today....

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Peakbagr
                              And you have that on personal knowledge or someone told you ?
                              An opinion I formed on my own based on knowing someone rather involved in ADK, is all I'll say.

                              Though perhaps the word "dictatorship" carries with it too much baggage. I'm talking benevolent here, not Stalin.
                              Last edited by colden46; 11-19-2010, 06:33 PM. Reason: reworded

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                As reported by wnbz this morning

                                APA makes last minute change to Moose River Plains


                                One of the most complicated management planning processes in the history of the Adirondack Park Agency took a last minute turn Thursday, as commissioners opted to split up a 14,700 acre region in an attempt to avoid setting a precedent.

                                For over five years, agency and state Department of Environmental Conservation staff have struggled with the best approach at managing the extremely popular Moose River Plains Wild Forest.

                                Of particular interest are two aspects of the most recent proposed management plan that would see over 84,000 acres remain wild forest, while just under 15,000 acres would become wilderness.

                                The DEC plan would have seen the southernmost 14,700 acres transferred into the West Canada Wilderness.

                                But that wilderness would have been bisected by the old Otter Brook Truck Road, which would remain open to mountain bikers and other non-motorized forms of recreation. The truck road would have constituted a wild forest corridor running through a wilderness area.

                                And setting such a precedent didn’t make State Lands Chair Dick Booth very comfortable.

                                “I think it’s a great idea; using what was a road for a bike corridor,” he said. “But it raises some hard question about future decisions regarding wilderness decisions. What it amounts to is a wild forest corridor through the West Canada Wilderness. That will be the result.”

                                Booth proposed a change to the plan that he said would change the legal aspect of the plan but not its actual implementation. His plan would see two separate wilderness areas created.

                                “A wild forest corridor between two wilderness areas is conceptually a different thing than a wild forest corridor running through a wilderness area,” he said. “But on the ground they will be the same thing.”

                                The amended Moose River Plain proposal unanimously passed state lands.

                                But the increased complexities of Booth’s proposed changes didn’t set well with everyone – especially Dan Plumley of the green group Forever Wild.

                                Plumley argues that the increased management requirements because of the change aren’t realistic.

                                “On the day when pink slips are being distributed to all DEC regions throughout the state, when we have not even one full ranger watching the Moose River Plains Wild Forest, we now have one unit being divided into four state land units,” he said.

                                As proposed, Moose River Plains would also feature an intensive use area corridor along the Limkiln-Cedar River Road running through much of the wild forest.

                                The road is a favorite annual destination for thousands of roadside campers. The plan would also allow continued float plane access to three of the ponds in the massive state holding.

                                And Plumley argues the state is paying too much attention to the user groups and not enough to the environment.

                                “No one is speaking about the need to protect the natural resources. There has been no discussion about invasive species or wilderness issues,” he said.

                                But not all environmental groups are as unhappy with the Moose River Plains proposal. The Adirondack Council, for example, has expressed some concerns with the plan, but said it wasn’t going to fight it.

                                Local governments are largely pleased with the new plan for Moose River Plains – especially considering the much more restrictive plan first proposed in 2005.

                                John Frye is supervisor of Inlet.

                                “I think it is a step towards compromise. Obviously, it’s not what everybody wants, but that’s not a possibility,” he said. “As far as the town of Inlet, local government or the user groups, it’s an appeasement step.”

                                The state received some 750 comment letters covering all aspects of the proposal.

                                As part of the creation of the management plan state regulators reached out to local governments, green groups and representatives from numerous outdoor recreational communities, like mountain bikers.

                                And although saying it isn’t perfect, Indian Lake Supervisor Barry Hutchins believes his concerns were listened to and considered.

                                “I believe I was actually listened to on this one,” he said. “It’s a nice change.”

                                The full APA board will consider the amended proposal this morning.


                                Sounds to me like a comprimise is in the works.

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