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Old 02-17-2019, 12:03 PM   #21
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I agree, these are good lists. Buckladd's list is good too; as is the list that Tony G. has promoted in earlier threads and in ADK magazine.

The problem, though, is not in coming up with an appropriate short list of important points. The problem is how to get this list into the heads of the hikers that are showing up at the trailhead.
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:43 AM   #22
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I think some kind of education program is a good idea to create some baseline awareness in some people. But I think that something like that would be a supplement to, NOT a substitute for face to face interaction with a human at the trailhead:
>Education programs are minimally effective. Look at some of the products of our formal education system, even after thousands of hours of forced attendance.
>Many folks today don't read signs. They won't read an education presentation either, just click through it as fast as they can to get whatever cert is provided at the end.
>Many folks today are not aware of what's going on around them, and won't remember something they heard 5 minutes ago, much less last year.

So nothing wrong with this kind of a program; I don't oppose it. My concern with it is that it will become a cover/excuse for the state to continue steadfastly refusing to fund a (fairly inexpensive) program of full time, paid trailhead educators to meet hikers face to face and discuss the "top three most important things" as mentioned above.
The sportsman Education program has been very successful In the 60's there were 137 (AVERAGE) and as of last year there were 22 http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/hrsi18.pdf
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:50 PM   #23
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"Many folks today don't read signs. They won't read an education presentation either, just click through it as fast as they can to get whatever cert is provided at the end."

If you enroll in the course you must take a test. That's how you get the permit.
Your points are well taken and no one is trying to circumvent interaction with a competent trail person, but some people do things based on a whim at the last minute and do not realize how rugged the high peaks can be if you are not prepared. Just trying to prevent impetuous citizens from getting into trouble because the set out unprepared. Some pay for it with their lives. Cell phones don't always get a signal in the park. I have even been on a SAT phone unable to get through. I don't mind at all participating in SAR efforts as a volunteer but with more and more people using the Park every year perhaps we could even the odds with some educational efforts.
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:34 AM   #24
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From this week's Ranger report.

"High Peaks Wilderness
Preventative Search and Rescue Initiative: Region 5 Forest Rangers piloted a preventative Search and Rescue initiative during the President's Day holiday weekend in the High Peaks Wilderness. Staff from Adirondack Mountain Club and volunteers from Keene-Keene Valley Backcountry Rescue partnered in the effort to directly interact with hikers entering the backcountry. Forest Rangers, ADK staff, and volunteers were stationed at the Cascade Mountain Trailhead, Adirondak Loj Trailhead, the High Peaks Information Center, and on other trails in the area where they queried hikers about their destination, gear, equipment and clothing. They also provided information and displays to demonstrate the proper gear, equipment, and clothing necessary to help ensure a safe and enjoyable outdoor winter experience. Statistics from Cascade Mountain show that more than 100 hikers were encountered each day on Saturday and Sunday. Approximately 40 percent were unprepared because of improper clothing or footwear. The overall goal of this effort is to decrease the number of unprepared hikers and the number of search and rescue incidents. Forest Rangers and other participants will meet to evaluate the pilot initiative and use the information to determine how best to implement the initiative in the coming year.

View looking out from inside outreach tent with table that has informational pamphlets on it as a Forest Ranger walks by towards a hiker Snowy terrain with cross country skiiers on left and right with their attention turned to Forest Ranger.
Forest Rangers speak with hikers during Adirondack outreach effort

Be sure to properly prepare and plan before entering the backcountry. Visit DEC's Hiking Safety and Adirondack Backcountry Information webpage for more information.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/press.html"
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:06 AM   #25
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Approximately 40 percent were unprepared because of improper clothing or footwear.
That's a crazy stat!
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:57 AM   #26
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As a SAR crew boss, I am primarily and entirely responsible for the safety of the volunteers in my assigned crew. Often, especially for well publicized long lasting SAR incidents, every local Joe off the street will show up at the Incident Command Center, offering their services. It's an amazing array of who shows up. Family, friends, others looking for adventure, as well as to just help in any way they can. It can be unbelievable. Many are clearly unprepared with clothing and footwear or are otherwise not fit to spend a strenuous day in the field. Between the operations command rangers and myself, we have to make judgements on whether each person who signs in is prepared and capable enough to join a search team.

Not only do we have to train the uninitiated on the spot of what to look for and to detail how a search line is conducted, we have to worry about if they are prepared enough and can maintain tough exertion for a whole day. I have had to tell individuals that they don't appear to have the proper clothing (cotton blue jeans, smooth sole sneakers, and yes even flip flops) An attempt is always made to find something useful for them to do at the ICS without sending them into the field. More than once I've had to call a ranger over to back me up when I told someone that they are not equipped or appear not to be fit to go into the field.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:01 PM   #27
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As a SAR crew boss, I am primarily and entirely responsible for the safety of the volunteers in my assigned crew. Often, especially for well publicized long lasting SAR incidents, every local Joe off the street will show up at the Incident Command Center, offering their services. It's an amazing array of who shows up. Family, friends, others looking for adventure, as well as to just help in any way they can. It can be unbelievable. Many are clearly unprepared with clothing and footwear or are otherwise not fit to spend a strenuous day in the field. Between the operations command rangers and myself, we have to make judgements on whether each person who signs in is prepared and capable enough to join a search team.

Not only do we have to train the uninitiated on the spot of what to look for and to detail how a search line is conducted, we have to worry about if they are prepared enough and can maintain tough exertion for a whole day. I have had to tell individuals that they don't appear to have the proper clothing (cotton blue jeans, smooth sole sneakers, and yes even flip flops) An attempt is always made to find something useful for them to do at the ICS without sending them into the field. More than once I've had to call a ranger over to back me up when I told someone that they are not equipped or appear not to be fit to go into the field.
Dunning–Kruger in action.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:00 PM   #28
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That's a crazy stat!
Wondering what percentage of the 40% for improper clothing or footware were in the category of lacking snowshoes.
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Old 02-23-2019, 07:06 PM   #29
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Before we all come up with excuses. This could be an online course similar to the requirements for operating a jet ski. You study and take the test. You print out your mountain hiking permit. At the base you enter your permit number on a roster. Free permit. No permit? Big fine. Which will motivate most people into getting the permit. Want to take a chance on not having it? Who is going to enforce it? It self-enforces. The whole idea is to educate those who have no idea on being prepared. It WILL reduce incidents and prevent the need for as many SAR rescues.
If someone put one together with a patch (for small fee) and online roster a lot of folks would just do it. Maybe you could add it as a requirement to existing challenges. Hike x, y, z and pass this test.
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Old 02-24-2019, 12:49 AM   #30
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Before we all come up with excuses. This could be an online course similar to the requirements for operating a jet ski. You study and take the test. You print out your mountain hiking permit. At the base you enter your permit number on a roster. Free permit. No permit? Big fine. Which will motivate most people into getting the permit. Want to take a chance on not having it? Who is going to enforce it? It self-enforces. The whole idea is to educate those who have no idea on being prepared. It WILL reduce incidents and prevent the need for as many SAR rescues.
I have a good excuse. Remember when people used to refer to this as "a free country"? I don't need to go begging the governments permission every time I draw breath and I sure as hell don't need it to go for a walk in the woods. You think your going to tell me I owe you money cause I didn't ask your permission to walk in public place? You aren't going to like my reply. It's going to extraordinarily disrespectful. Isn't New York enough of a fascist police state as it is?
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:06 AM   #31
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I receive and review the weekly SAR report from NYSDEC. Yes, it is true that many rescues involve people who have over estimated their abilities and/or under estimated the effort needed to accomplish their goal. That being said, MANY of the rescues involve hikers running out of daylight. And, you guessed it, they don't have a flashlight. So rangers waste valuable time walking in to these hikers to "escort" them back out with flashlights. I myself have encountered many hikers on the way up a mountain very late in the day as I am heading back to the trailhead. I do a check of the time and quickly realize that these hikers do not have enough daylight left to complete their hike. I have even encountered people backpacking that did not bring a flashlight or headlamp. They stated that their cell phones were adequate. I carry 2 headlamps and 1 flashlight at all times. The second headlamp is my "older" headlamp and I use it as a "loaner" (note: I provide a return address. So far the return rate is about 50%). Maybe something as simple as a sign at all trailheads stressing that flashlights and/or headlamps are essential gear. Or better yet, as NYSDEC has directed people that snowshoes are mandatory when snow conditions prevail, make bringing a flashlight/headlamp mandatory. This simple rule might save countless SAR's.
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:52 PM   #32
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I have a good excuse. Remember when people used to refer to this as "a free country"? I don't need to go begging the governments permission every time I draw breath and I sure as hell don't need it to go for a walk in the woods. You think your going to tell me I owe you money cause I didn't ask your permission to walk in public place? You aren't going to like my reply. It's going to extraordinarily disrespectful. Isn't New York enough of a fascist police state as it is?
You're welcome.

Those of us that are residents of the Empire State are subsidizing your walk in OUR woods. Why don't you limit your hiking to your home state where maybe you actually pay some taxes? And, no, I don't count the small sales tax paid at a Stewart's as paying for the park.

Please don't get into trouble back in the 'docks, we don't need the additional costs of your "free ride."
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Old 02-24-2019, 02:59 PM   #33
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Those of us that are residents of the Empire State are subsidizing your walk in OUR woods. Why don't you limit your hiking to your home state where maybe you actually pay some taxes? And, no, I don't count the small sales tax paid at a Stewart's as paying for the park.

Please don't get into trouble back in the 'docks, we don't need the additional costs of your "free ride."
Perhaps you could join the volunteers and recite that spiel to the out of state hikers as they get ready to hike Cascade.
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:51 PM   #34
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You're welcome.

Those of us that are residents of the Empire State are subsidizing your walk in OUR woods. Why don't you limit your hiking to your home state where maybe you actually pay some taxes? And, no, I don't count the small sales tax paid at a Stewart's as paying for the park.

Please don't get into trouble back in the 'docks, we don't need the additional costs of your "free ride."
I've rescued & led out several stranded & lost hikers over the years, a few in the "Empire State". Never did charge any of them anything. Maybe I should send you a bill for having taken that problem off of your hands, since you are apparently solely responsible for everyone else in your woods.

Last edited by Neil; 02-25-2019 at 07:11 AM..
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:52 PM   #35
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I have a good excuse. Remember when people used to refer to this as "a free country"? I don't need to go begging the governments permission every time I draw breath and I sure as hell don't need it to go for a walk in the woods. You think your going to tell me I owe you money cause I didn't ask your permission to walk in public place? You aren't going to like my reply. It's going to extraordinarily disrespectful. Isn't New York enough of a fascist police state as it is?
With freedom comes responsibility. You're free to make bad choices, but it doesn't mean you're free of the consequences that come as a result of those choices, whether monetary or otherwise.
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:58 PM   #36
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With freedom comes responsibility. You're free to make bad choices, but it doesn't mean you're free of the consequences that come as a result of those choices, whether monetary or otherwise.
If and when I make a bad choice that requires someone else's help, I'll own up to it, at that time. Until then, there isn't a man alive that has the right to be on my back about something I haven't done. This country already has more than enough would-be tyrants walking around spouting BS about their "incident command"... Legends in their own minds. Would be nice if some of them would grow up and learn to get over themselves.
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:26 PM   #37
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If and when I make a bad choice that requires someone else's help, I'll own up to it, at that time. Until then, there isn't a man alive that has the right to be on my back about something I haven't done. This country already has more than enough would-be tyrants walking around spouting BS about their "incident command"... Legends in their own minds. Would be nice if some of them would grow up and learn to get over themselves.
So just to clarify, rather than the state telling you that you owe them money because you didn't ask permission to walk in a public place, (which I sympathize with and can understand -- I'm old enough to remember when you didn't need seatbelts or helmets or a registration for your semi-auto) you'd be ok with the state saying, "Here's the bill for your rescue?" instead? If so, then we're not in disagreement.
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:45 PM   #38
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So just to clarify, rather than the state telling you that you owe them money because you didn't ask permission to walk in a public place, (which I sympathize with and can understand -- I'm old enough to remember when you didn't need seatbelts or helmets or a registration for your semi-auto) you'd be ok with the state saying, "Here's the bill for your rescue?" instead? If so, then we're not in disagreement.
I don't think that's unreasonable. Short of the usual rampant corruption of course. Stupidity having a price might resolve some issues, maybe even keep some dumb-asses out of the woods or at least teach them to be responsible for their own actions. And if it gets rid of the Napoleon complex some other people have, even better.
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:50 AM   #39
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Perhaps you could join the volunteers and recite that spiel to the out of state hikers as they get ready to hike Cascade.
Only if it is from the " new and improved" access point up by the X-country ski course.
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:02 AM   #40
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I've rescued & led out several stranded & lost hikers over the years, a few in the "Empire State". Never did charge any of them anything. Maybe I should send you a bill for having taken that problem off of your hands, since you are apparently solely responsible for everyone else in your woods.
I never said anything about " sole responsibility" , but I did point out that your bombastic rant about "free country" has no basis in reality for those of us that actually pay the State taxes that support your access to "public spaces" that you have no title to, just your sense of entitlement. If I had may way, you would be buying a non-resident resource use permit, and as others here have suggested, paying a big fine if you got checked and didn't have it. Or you could just stay in the great state of New Jersey and use all the large expanses of open and mountainous land your state has acquired and reserved for you, at taxpayer expense.
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