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Old 02-25-2019, 10:33 AM   #41
Neil
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Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
your bombastic rant about "free country" has no basis in reality for those of us that actually pay the State taxes that support your access to "public spaces" that you have no title to, just your sense of entitlement.
I don't know about "entitlement" but I believe that those of us from other states and Canada have a legal right to hike on state lands in the Adirondack Park. In fact, your government, (ie. you and everyone else in the state) is paying for advertising outside of NYS in order to entice people to come.

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If I had may way, you would be buying a non-resident resource use permit, and as others here have suggested, paying a big fine if you got checked and didn't have it. Or you could just stay in the great state of New Jersey and use all the large expanses of open and mountainous land your state has acquired and reserved for you, at taxpayer expense.
Thankfully, not only do you not have your way but the odds of you ever getting it are extremely low. Of course you have every right to your opinions and are able to give voice to them on this forum.

Note that the operating expenses of this forum are paid for by the ADK High Peaks Foundation. We are looking forward to receiving your donation.
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Finally, I'd like to remind anyone reading this (now well off-topic) thread and who may be considering posting a reply to avoid personal attacks.
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Old 02-25-2019, 02:38 PM   #42
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"I don't know about "entitlement" but I believe that those of us from other states and Canada have a legal right to hike on state lands in the Adirondack Park. In fact, your government, (ie. you and everyone else in the state) is paying for advertising outside of NYS in order to entice people to come."


Valid point Neil, but do keep in mind that non-residents have always paid more for hunting & fishing licenses than residents and I also believe that is the case in most states. I also think possibly "legal privilege" might be a better term than "legal right"- although I can't speak to the actual legality of either.

Just because the NYS is advertising outside of the state- doesn't necessarily mean it should/will be "free". I am sure there could be a lengthly debate on the "contribution" vs. impact of nonresidents of NYS in the Adirondacks. I certainly get the idea of bringing in more people to hopefully contribute to the economic well being of the area while they are here....and thank you to all that do...!!

That being said..... I would certainly favor a fee system of some sort for nonresident access/usage long before I would support one for NYS residents. NYS residents already pay some pretty steep NY State taxes(property & income), along with hunting license, fishing license and Empire pass fees. Although I am seeing "impact" as a growing problem and certainly believe that education and public awareness is very important, I can not see us personally supporting a fee system to take a walk in the woods for NYS residents.
As NYS residents we personally have little to no experience using public lands in other states(or Canada), but if we were inclined, and were told there was a small fee to cover costs of education, resource management, etc. I honestly can say we would be fine with that. I don't believe as NYS residents we necessarily have the right(legal or other) to access public lands in other states unless they are US Federal government public properties....although maybe we do...I don't know?

On a side note..... Although we are all aware of the idea that the United States is considered a "Free Country", I have never heard that same phrase used in reference to New York State...LOL
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Old 02-25-2019, 03:05 PM   #43
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NY is rather unique, I believe, in that there are vast amounts of free to use public land. My son, who now lives and works in Texas, has very limited options in that regard. If he wants to hunt or to find a safe and legal place to shoot, he must in most cases either belong to an outdoorsman's club and/or pay a stiff fee to use private lands. But then again he does not have to pay state income tax in TX. A fair offset?

Doesn't Canada have some funky rules about non-residents using (or not) with regards to "Crown Lands"?

If NY were to institute some sort of test and hiking fee, what defines "hiking"? If I am operating a vehicle, a bicycle, or a boat, carrying fishing gear, or carrying a rifle, I am clearly participating in an activity that may or may not have a legal definition. But if there is a land feature located on a well used walking path leading a short distance from a pull-off on the road, would the hiking fee rule apply? Think about Cathedral Pines on the shore of 8th Lake. It is right there on road's edge, but has a "hiking trail" through a stand of gigantic pines. Do I need a pass there? What if I am driving through a wild forest or wilderness area on a back road and stop to heed nature's call. How far can I go into the trees for privacy, but not get ticketed for not having as hiker's pass?
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Old 02-25-2019, 04:03 PM   #44
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NY is rather unique, I believe, in that there are vast amounts of free to use public land.
Which is one of the virtues that many of us from Canada appreciate and which brings us and our dollars to your fine state. And of course the average Cdn who visits spends more than a cup of coffee at Stewarts. (Although, there is no obligation to spend a dime.) This is a big attraction that helps draw Canadians to the Adirondacks. In Quebec people tend to moan about what are considered to be high access fees to use our provincial and regional parks. Considering Quebec taxes are the highest in Canada you can't blame them (highest marginal rate income tax= 51%, which excludes municipal taxes and various other taxes such as are included in our $5 US-sized gallon of gas).
Overnight fees for huts or campgrounds with facilities such as picnic tables, fire pits, and hot showers are more accepted.

Regarding fee differentials for residents vs. non-residents I looked and saw none for either federal park passes or provincial. Non-resident hunters especially and fishermen to a lesser extent pay increased fees.

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Doesn't Canada have some funky rules about non-residents using (or not) with regards to "Crown Lands"?
In Ontario, non-residents must pay 9.95 CDN a night to camp on Crown Land. Crown Lands are not parks. They are public lands that are very lightly administrated. 85% of the land in Ontario is Crown Land. I've done a lot of camping and un-trailed hiking on Crown Land in Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec. For residents it's free and you encounter few people (basically none in my experience) and there are no regulations other than the law that pertains to everywhere else in Canada.

Having experienced both systems I greatly prefer the current and unique NYS model. I have no idea if it's possible to make a study but I suspect that if out-of-staters had to pay a fee to hike or paddle that there would be a lot less of them. Then what would be the point of all that expensive advertising?

A quick look at some fiscal allocation towards the park indicates that hikers and paddlers are not a large part of the expenses.
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Originally Posted by https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/news_releases/governor-cuomo-budget
For the Adirondacks, state spending largely has held steady around key state investments in the region. The new Environmental Protection Fund will be funded at $300 million for the second year in a row, the highest level for this fund in its 25-year history. Highlights include: $8 million for environmental justice; $16 million for Waterfront Revitalization, including $1,000,000 for Adirondack infrastructure and environmental improvements for the towns of Long Lake, North Hudson, Minerva, Indian Lake and Newcomb; $20 million for State Parks Stewardship, including $300,000 for the Newcomb and PSC VICs and $700,000 for the Lake George Park Commission infrastructure to help with boat monitoring and invasive species control; $34 million for Forest Preserve stewardship, $30 million for land acquisition, $20 million for farmlands protection, $18.6 million for Great Lakes and $13.3 million for invasive species, $12 million for climate smart projects.
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Old 02-25-2019, 04:21 PM   #45
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If 40% were unprepared at only a couple different High Peak trailheads then clearly something more needs to be done. We’ve been saying more education for how many years now? That doesn’t seem to be working.
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Old 02-25-2019, 04:28 PM   #46
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NY is rather unique, I believe, in that there are vast amounts of free to use public land.\
As a hiker minimal issues in VT and MA

I climbed Mt Greylock and Mt Holyoke this year I encountered no barriers. Just drive there and go hiking. I'd figure Mt Tom would be the same.

VT has state forests both Killington (Coolidge State Forest) no fee, Camels Hump had no fee, Mt Mansfield (parking fee at Underhill S.P. but it is also a place for camping. Similar to Woodland Valley in NY for Wittenberg, Cornell and Slide in the Cats)

Don

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Old 02-25-2019, 04:42 PM   #47
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Neil,
Could you explain the ZEC system for us?
thanks.
Best I can do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_d...%C3%B4l%C3%A9e
Sums it up quite well.
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:46 PM   #48
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"I have a good excuse. Remember when people used to refer to this as "a free country"? I don't need to go begging the governments permission every time I draw breath and I sure as hell don't need it to go for a walk in the woods. You think your going to tell me I owe you money cause I didn't ask your permission to walk in public place? You aren't going to like my reply. It's going to extraordinarily disrespectful. Isn't New York enough of a fascist police state as it is?"

You're absolutely correct! We didn't like your reply. But the Addacks 6 million acre Park is big enough for out of town guests. Perhaps you are one of those who know enough to be prepared for the rigors of mountain hiking. If so, wunderbar! If you are one of those I am sure you can understand those who arrive in flip flops sans proper clothing and flashlight, etc. Our dilemma is not with you as an out of town prepared guest. Our concern is for those whether from NY or elsewhere who get into trouble maybe because they watch too much crepe on tv and want to be "He Man" (Older Cartoon). We just want to have them arrive more prepared. If we need a militia to cope with any fascist elements from the Empire (another old movie), we will notify you to lead the parade with your apparent prowess from the New Jersey Highlands. Until then, I have some room here in Inlet to store your soapbox and megaphone and keep it handy.
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Old 02-25-2019, 06:48 PM   #49
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Just carrying on from what Neil mentioned about Canada and also returning to to the original jist of the thread, the Gros Morne National Park as with all Parks Canada assists levy a user fee for various activities such as hiking. More to the point of this thread if you want to hike the Long Range Traverse you are required too attend a briefing session . I lifted the text from the website. www.pc.gc.ca/grosmorne.

I have been to Gros Morne several times never to hike but if you were making the effort to get there I reckon this briefing makes a lot of sense.

Mandatory Orientation Sessions:
All hikers doing the Long Range or Northern Traverse must attend a backcountry briefing in order to receive their backcountry hiking permit. Briefings are offered daily at 2:30pm at the Visitor Centre near Rocky Harbour.
The purpose of the briefing is to:
1. Reduce the number of hiker injuries and lost hiker incidents by providing information about safety issues.
2. Reduce environmental impacts and maintain a quality backcountry hiking experience by providing backcountry etiquette information.
3. Provide current information about route conditions.
4. Provide a brief overview of the natural history of the Long Range Mountains to help enrich your experience.
5. Emergency planning – outline procedures for emergencies and rescues on the Long Range.
6. Issue park permits and collect fees.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:59 PM   #50
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Blackflie, that's great info. That's another example of how to do it right, with face-to-face interaction to deliver the "safe hiking" message.

NY State REFUSES to spend a penny to get anything like that done, and that's a major failure.

So in the interim, we have to do the best we can with the resources we have. Thanks to all who volunteer.

And Neil, you and your fellow Canadians are always welcome, as far as I'm concerned. Most Canadians in the High Peaks, in my experience, are knowledgeable and fit. And they're usually better dressed than I am, in the latest outdoor gear.

I don't think there is any place for trying to single out a particular population as "the problem." Nor is money the issue, driving some need to charge "outsiders." NY pours hundreds of billions (yes, with a "b") down countless rat holes year after year. It's purely a lack of will, a lack of leadership, and a lack of competent management that leaves the "unprepared hiker SAR" issue inadequately addressed.
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:06 PM   #51
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My wife and I did the Long Range hike nine years ago. The info session was a 45 minute movie. But then we had to pass a written test on nav and map skills, which you could not fudge your way through. The cost of the hike was $85 each plus a nominal sum for an obligatory tracking device (the kind used for wildlife). If we were 24 hours overdue SAR would have been initiated. This was a 3-4 day rugged hike and there was no trail. We also had to pay for our park pass, a car spot/taxi and an incredible boat ride on magnificent Western Brook Pond. You could not be let off the boat if you didn't have your hiking pass, which you could not get without watching the film and passing the test and of course paying. We found it to cost us a lot for a 3-day hike but were happy nevertheless to do it. Pics
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:34 PM   #52
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The last three posters make lots of sense. How about a grass roots campaign to let our NY government know what we need based on a pragmatic approach from our Northern allies. Everything takes funds that's how our country works. It's free until someone needs help. I am grateful that help is professional and available.
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:00 PM   #53
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A little perspective on SAR in this part of the world,103 Search and Rescue (SAR) Squadron RCAF would likely be the unit deployed out of Gander, there are no roads in so CH-149 Cormorant's would be the most likley extraction tool. Sadly my fell walking/hiking/mountaineering day are pretty much over but I still enjoy my trips to NYS and the Rock and Labrador. So just get out there and enjoy the Islay!
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:37 AM   #54
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I never said anything about " sole responsibility" , but I did point out that your bombastic rant about "free country" has no basis in reality for those of us that actually pay the State taxes that support your access to "public spaces" that you have no title to, just your sense of entitlement. If I had may way, you would be buying a non-resident resource use permit, and as others here have suggested, paying a big fine if you got checked and didn't have it. Or you could just stay in the great state of New Jersey and use all the large expanses of open and mountainous land your state has acquired and reserved for you, at taxpayer expense.
So tell me, when the Nature Conservency shelled out their cash to purchase the Finch, Pruyn lands, Boreas Ponds, etc and several other large tracts over the years, did that & numerous other national organizations use only membership money and donations from members only within the Empire State to make that purchase? Similarly, are you telling me that New York State takes no federal money at all for the park? All the volunteers doing trail work... They're all, only from New York right? Neil, taking his time to administrate this forum, from Canada. Please provide your address so he can send you a bill for his services.

As per the national constitution and the Supreme Court. It is a right of every national citizen to travel through and within each of the several states and to use any public right of way without being molested or restricted or set upon by the local or state governments, subject only to the common law.

Just as I have the right to cross the borders of any state and walk down the sidewalks of any town, without being expected to pay special fees or apply to the local overlords for permission, I have a right to walk in the public forests anywhere in this nation and no government anywhere has the right to regulate that action.

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Old 02-26-2019, 09:00 AM   #55
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Stay in Jersey, highlander. I'm sure theres agood place for a hike somewhere in Newark.
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Old 02-26-2019, 09:08 AM   #56
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"I have a good excuse. Remember when people used to refer to this as "a free country"? I don't need to go begging the governments permission every time I draw breath and I sure as hell don't need it to go for a walk in the woods. You think your going to tell me I owe you money cause I didn't ask your permission to walk in public place? You aren't going to like my reply. It's going to extraordinarily disrespectful. Isn't New York enough of a fascist police state as it is?"

You're absolutely correct! We didn't like your reply. But the Addacks 6 million acre Park is big enough for out of town guests. Perhaps you are one of those who know enough to be prepared for the rigors of mountain hiking. If so, wunderbar! If you are one of those I am sure you can understand those who arrive in flip flops sans proper clothing and flashlight, etc. Our dilemma is not with you as an out of town prepared guest. Our concern is for those whether from NY or elsewhere who get into trouble maybe because they watch too much crepe on tv and want to be "He Man" (Older Cartoon). We just want to have them arrive more prepared. If we need a militia to cope with any fascist elements from the Empire (another old movie), we will notify you to lead the parade with your apparent prowess from the New Jersey Highlands. Until then, I have some room here in Inlet to store your soapbox and megaphone and keep it handy.
I do understand the problem with the imbeciles in the flip-flops & such. As I said, I've had to lead a number of them out of the woods over the years. Even carried a sneaker clad girl with a twisted ankle, on my back all the way down from Kaaterskill Falls to the parking lot. But I do not agree to any attempt to put more & more limitations on myself in order to cope with yet another idiot. Just like your states egregiously unconstitutional "Safe Act" against all firearms owners for the heinous acts of a few, another reason I already spend more of my time in Vermont/New Hampshire & Maine these days.
The attempted education campaign could easily be vastly improved. Very prominent signage at the trail heads could make a big difference. I would start with a very hard to miss sign at the head of all trails immediately calling the hiker to check the current time, describing the average time a fit hiker would take to reach a peak or other objective & return to the parking lot and posing the question "can you be back out before dark?". Even better, a digital sign that knows what time it is and after a certain time each day begins flashing prominently, right in way of anyone going up the trail, alerting people that there is insufficient time left before dark to complete this trail? Do you have a real (not cell phone) flashlight? Can you navigate the woods in the pitch black dark? Are you equipped to spend a night in the woods if you can't find your way out? Another sign further up the trail "if you've reached this point after (whatever o'clock, could be self adjusting with simple GPS receiver), you should turn back immediately, SAR will cost this much $$$$ if you call for help due to incompetence".
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:09 PM   #57
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BTW there is some beautiful country in the Jersey Highlands and thank you for your reply and ideas. This type of dialog has value in that there are many more lurkers on this site who might be getting some good information to help them. I agree some laws are veiled while they steal more freedoms from us. We just want the same things you do while preserving our beautiful wilderness areas and our freedoms. Thanks for your participation.
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Old 03-01-2019, 09:14 AM   #58
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Even better, a digital sign that knows what time it is and after a certain time each day begins flashing prominently, right in way of anyone going up the trail, alerting people that there is insufficient time left before dark to complete this trail? Do you have a real (not cell phone) flashlight? Can you navigate the woods in the pitch black dark? Are you equipped to spend a night in the woods if you can't find your way out.
I kinda like this idea. It's in your face and probably out of place on the trail, but in the parking lot, why not. I think with some people, short of a 2x4 upside the head, you're not going to get their attention any other way.
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Old 03-01-2019, 09:32 AM   #59
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My wife and I did the Long Range hike nine years ago. Pics
Great pics! I felt so bad for your wife with all those bites on her face! black flies?
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:04 AM   #60
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First and foremost, I am a hunter (and angler) and I have no problem paying for those privileges. I also take pride in a program called the Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act (Pittman–Robertson), which taxes my guns, ammo and archery tackle and redistributes that money back to the states to support wildlife management; and not always for game species. P-R funds went towards the Adirondack moose study and to purchase the Washington County Grasslands and other WMAs.

Anyway, a similar program would be the hiking/biking/paddling/skiing/snowshoeing/rockclimbing/everything else’s best shot at funding any long-term program, be it awareness or training. Hiking licenses and such likely won’t happen, or even parking fees, because the state would have to create a bureaucracy, or add to one that already exists (DEC,) to manage it. And, much to the chagrin of those who want 40 Forest Rangers, resources in the form of humans are not in the plan. That’s simply the reality that must be accepted.

All of the plans people come up with (except for hammering out-of-staters) sound logical and might hold merit, but what was just rolled out is the best they (NYS) are likely gonna do. Like sportsmen, and even snowmobilers, other recreational groups will have to figure it out for themselves, especially if they want a funded program. Roll up your sleeves!
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