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Old 05-28-2018, 05:42 PM   #161
Lucky13
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they went ahead & removed all off the small trees & shrubs the were already growing & established on & near the dams at LeBeir Flow & Boreas Ponds back in the summer of ‘16, .
It is standard maintenance to remove trees and shrubs around dams and berm areas to prevent the root balls from compromising the integrity of the structures. IF the dam collapsed, it might take a constitutional amendment to replace it!!
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Old 05-28-2018, 06:28 PM   #162
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It is standard maintenance to remove trees and shrubs around dams and berm areas to prevent the root balls from compromising the integrity of the structures. IF the dam collapsed, it might take a constitutional amendment to replace it!!
Understood, and that was exactly what I was told (minus your last sentence) in response to my inquiry to NYDEC. I just found it a little odd given the area hadn’t even began to undergo a public comment period yet when the trees where removed, and the fact that those existing trees & shrubs posed no immediate threat to the dams, as they were all very small.
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Old 05-29-2018, 07:41 AM   #163
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The Snowmobilers pay something called a "user fee", like a fishing license, or a hunting license, and that gives them a bit of leverage.
I'm not a snowmobiler. But my town in the eastern ADKs thrives on it thanks to a good trail system on both private and public lands. It's that combination that makes it work, just as it likely will with the easements and Forest Preserve lands in this part of the ADKs.
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Old 05-29-2018, 12:56 PM   #164
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People keep bringing up Cedar River Flow as an example of the "bad things" that might happen to Boreas Ponds.

1) Are there any proposals to open up car-camping sites along the water at Boreas Ponds? Last I heard, there weren't.

2) There is a little congestion of camp sites right at the damn at Cedar River Flow. I've been there on many a busy weekend, and while I found the area too crowded for my tastes, I never saw any obnoxious or disruptive behavior. I'm sure it happens on occasion, but the water itself is still a good place to fish and paddle. I really can't say that my experience on the water there has suffered because of bad apples back on land.

3) There are plenty isolated car-camp sites in that Moose River Plains WF road system where one can find solitude. Arguably, that system of roads provides access points to some of the most remote areas of the ADK's.

As a hunter, I certainly appreciate how these roads provide good access to areas that would be otherwise very difficult to get to. Similarly, the road access at Boreas Ponds provides a good access point to explore the lands adjacent to the High Peaks, even if it doesn't provide good access to the peaks themselves. For me, and I suspect many others, there is more to the ADK's than simply hiking up a High Peak and taking a selfie.
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Old 05-29-2018, 02:05 PM   #165
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I've been there on many a busy weekend, and while I found the area too crowded for my tastes, I never saw any obnoxious or disruptive behavior.
You have been very lucky, my friend.
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Old 05-29-2018, 03:12 PM   #166
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For me, and I suspect many others, there is more to the ADK's than simply hiking up a High Peak and taking a selfie.[/QUOTE]


For me, too, moreso since finishing my 46 (back before digital). Paddling in remote lakes, biking, climbing lesser peaks, all great stuff. However, I, too, am concerned that the easy access (if you have 4wd) to the LaBier Flow will result in the area being overused and trashed. Hopefully DEC will provide comprehensive physical barriers (ie- ones you can't drive around) and facilities to allow for the increased traffic to impart limited impact on this incredible place. If they locate the campsites properly, monitor traffic, provide appropriate toilets and maintenance, and educate the public about good LNT practices, it might survive and look the same in 20 years as it does now. If left to the public, it will be a mess.
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Old 05-29-2018, 07:23 PM   #167
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... If they locate the campsites properly, monitor traffic, provide appropriate toilets and maintenance, and educate the public about good LNT practices, it might survive and look the same in 20 years as it does now.
I’m pretty sure this is what most people are hoping for. I’m only speaking from my own experiences throughout the Adirondack Park with easy access, and I don’t really have as much faith with easy access that others might. I highly doubt the area will be the same as it was in 20 years before it became easy public access without the proper needed protection & enforcement. I haven’t seen, read, or heard of any evidence, examples, or announcements that there will be more protection & enforcement at Boreas Ponds than any other of the countless other areas with easy access within the Adirondacks. I can only hope & pray the UMP will keep it to a minimum.

Last edited by Justin; 05-29-2018 at 09:07 PM.. Reason: Added a thought
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:25 PM   #168
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You can never expect that public access won't have some kind of impact... it will, but also there will be many positives no matter what the access is:

-the majority of the actual acreage of land will be untouched. Most people don't wander too far from trails or roads. Those impacts will be confined to these areas.

-the land won't be logged again as long as it remains in the forest preserve. Despite the designation, the forest will return to old growth. And despite people cutting trees around campsites, the vast majority will remain untouched.

-the dam will remain and be maintained. This may or may not be a plus depending on your viewpoint. I'd just as soon it go away and the land go back to the way it was 300 years ago, but many "environmentalists" would have a conniption at the thought of losing those precious (man-made) wetlands.

Who loses out are the people that regularly would use the campsites and recreate. Eventually we'll foul up the campsites, they'll need to be closed and moved, and we'll impact another area. The garbage will never really stay long term. It's just a gross eyesore to those who use it immediately and someone will pick it up. Noisy a-holes will mostly disturb other campers and invasive species will do what they do everywhere else: just create a new ecosystem, which is what those ponds are anyway, like it or not.

You really have to realize that most people do not want lands to revert back to completely undeveloped status. Even most on this thread would likely be opposed to that. And thus we wind up with a very thin line between motorized and non-motorized access, but in the end, really the same sort of thing.
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Old 05-29-2018, 11:40 PM   #169
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Montcalm speaks the truth.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:15 AM   #170
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And thus we wind up with a very thin line between motorized and non-motorized access, but in the end, really the same sort of thing.
I was with you right up until here -- not sure I'm getting what you mean.
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:16 AM   #171
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An interesting piece from the Adirondack Almanack written by my friend Bill...

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The assumption is that the Boreas Ponds Tract is so new that we canít know what the impacts will be, so itís OK to start building things and then see what happens over time... As members of a concerned citizenry, it is our role not to let DEC get away with playing dumb.
https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2...c-opinion.html
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:17 AM   #172
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An interesting piece from the Adirondack Almanack written by my friend Bill...



https://www.adirondackalmanack.com/2...c-opinion.html
Because of the "so new we don't know what the impacts will be" comment, all the more reason to take it slowly. Keep vehicle access to where it is now, set up proper campsite facilities in a few spots, build the new trails, and see how that flies. Can't put the genie back in the bottle. If road opened to LaBier or the big intersection, it will be tough to go back, though not impossible. I have said from the beginning that this tract is a real test of public lands policy, and DEC can either really screw it up or get it right. Ramming it in so fast is not the way to achieve the latter, nor is ignoring majority public opinion.
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:35 AM   #173
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What would be nice is if there was a handicap only parking space at the end of the road. All able bodied still have to walk the full way in.
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Old 05-30-2018, 02:44 PM   #174
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What would be nice is if there was a handicap only parking space at the end of the road. All able bodied still have to walk the full way in.
Bingo!
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Old 05-30-2018, 02:55 PM   #175
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What would be nice is if there was a handicap only parking space at the end of the road. All able bodied still have to walk the full way in.
This logic could be extended to "close all the roads at the Blue line" except for property owners.

If the public has the opinion that a swan should be called a duck, does that make it a duck? Or that an invasive swan is a "beautiful bird", does that make it less destructive to native birds? The fact of the matter is that Boreas Ponds is NOT wilderness, they are man made ponds that have been accessed by TNC staffers for years via a well built road. How old do I have to be to qualify as less than able bodied? I am sure I can get my doctor to issue me a blue sticker for the truck, just based on my reduced ability to complete tasks in the time it took when I was younger. I see a lot of this as the same "more for me less for the general public, except footing the bill" that I have been hearing up there for years. If you want to fight for wilderness, at least find some to fight for, not an already developed man-made and improved area that could benefit a whole lot of the less actively inclined, and bring some bodies into the Newcomb area as well.
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Old 05-30-2018, 04:30 PM   #176
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This logic could be extended to "close all the roads at the Blue line" except for property owners.

If the public has the opinion that a swan should be called a duck, does that make it a duck? Or that an invasive swan is a "beautiful bird", does that make it less destructive to native birds? The fact of the matter is that Boreas Ponds is NOT wilderness, they are man made ponds that have been accessed by TNC staffers for years via a well built road. How old do I have to be to qualify as less than able bodied? I am sure I can get my doctor to issue me a blue sticker for the truck, just based on my reduced ability to complete tasks in the time it took when I was younger. I see a lot of this as the same "more for me less for the general public, except footing the bill" that I have been hearing up there for years. If you want to fight for wilderness, at least find some to fight for, not an already developed man-made and improved area that could benefit a whole lot of the less actively inclined, and bring some bodies into the Newcomb area as well.
I think what they have now (drive halfway, walk/ride the rest) is a good balance. When TNC owned it there was a tiny number of people using the area, and they likely knew they'd get called on it if they misused it. The proposed plan is not even close to that level of use, potentially, so needs to be managed slowly.

I get the economics and I am not advocating some crazy agenda of returning to wilderness; frankly I wish they'd have allowed mt biking beyond the dam, and I have no issue with snowmobiles on existing roads. Both would bring in dollars, just like people hoping to paddle on a beautiful mountain lake without dealing with scenes like some refer to at Cedar R Flow also drop money on the area. Just want to keep it clean like it is now, and I am hopeful (though not optimistic) that the new UMP will allow that.
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:46 PM   #177
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I was with you right up until here -- not sure I'm getting what you mean.
What I'm saying is once you venture a 1/4 mile from a road, besides the noise, there's little difference in character between what we call wilderness and wild forest. I'm not a fan of the noise, or the extra junk that motorized vehicles can bring, so I favor wilderness... but we have to realize sometimes it's a very thin line that separates them*.



*the other instance I don't agree with my own statement is water. Motor boats bring an extra layer of noise, pollution and wake which changes the character for other forms of recreation. I also feel hikers, skiers, and bikes sharing roads/trails with motor vehicles is not always a very safe or enjoyable experience.

Last edited by montcalm; 05-30-2018 at 06:00 PM..
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:49 PM   #178
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What would be nice is if there was a handicap only parking space at the end of the road. All able bodied still have to walk the full way in.
As I understand it, I think this is more or less what they are aiming for. The parking area at the dam will be very small and I believe have a handicap access. The major parking areas will still be located down the road where the current one is now (maybe more to come). The idea is they wanted people to be able to drop off canoes and gear at the dam, drive and find parking and then walk back in. I think the idea was to keep the parking pile up at the dam to a minimum but also avoid having people wheeling canoes along the road.
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:09 PM   #179
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I will bet that hikers won't be spending a lot of money in Newcomb or North Hudson...they haven't yet....but people that own those snow machines will and have...sorry that is the way it is...yes I still hike and don't own a machine....when you have roads that 18 wheelers can travel on--it is not a wilderness--hope I have not offended anyone, but I spend a lot of time in the Newcomb area....thanks
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:19 PM   #180
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What would be nice is if there was a handicap only parking space at the end of the road. All able bodied still have to walk the full way in.
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