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Old 08-25-2009, 07:24 PM   #41
suescanal
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Originally Posted by Camp MacFox View Post
Here's an idea: limit camping in the Whitney Wilderness/Lows area to 1 night at any given campsite. Even if using Low's (or LT or Lila) as a base for hiking or other day trips, you would have to change campsites every day. For those of us experienced backcountry adventurers who travel light, breaking and setting up camp is a quick process. The recreation-minded vacationers who come in overloaded boats with their coolers, picnic canopies, etc. would either learn the more appropriate methods of wilderness camping or decide that there are any number of nice state parks in the Adirondacks where one can set up a fancy camp for weeks on end. By forcing everyone to change campsites every night, no-one would be able to sit on prime real estate for days and everyone would have a fair chance at a good site for at least some of their visit.

Another idea: More concerted effort to educate campers about low-impact camping techniques before they set out. Better signage/brochures at the parking area on important topics like how to go to the bathroom in the woods, why glass containers are a poor choice on paddling trips and what to do with the parts of the fish you don't intend to eat. Could some of us dedicated wilderness lovers serve as volunteer educators/monitors at the put-ins on summer weekends? Maybe the ADK club could adopt such a project? Get the outfitters behind it too - have them hand out the brochures with their rental agreements. It's in their interest to keep their clients' experience on these lakes a positive one.

1st paragraph-
I don't think so. keep regulating ?

2nd-
People who are slobs ignore signage and brochures- the last thing needed is more graffiti. Also, the idea of rental outfitters trying to sell me something- -yikes.
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Old 08-26-2009, 05:09 PM   #42
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Horseshoes near Horseshoe

Sometimes the situation at any given moment is not desirable and worse but yet there is no blame or solution. Passing through Hitchins Pond recently, a group of guys were enjoying their beer and playing horseshoes at the carry. The clanging sound of the horsehsoes echoed across the small lake as did their loud voices in competition. It could happen in any DEC campground as well. I did not care for seeing and hearing this game on a wilderness lake. Yet I knew that I could not be upset or angry with them. On that rare nice summer day, they were enjoying themselves as was I and has asmuch right to be there. Is it an option to outlaw horseshoes on our wilderness lakes? Nah. Sometimes two different types of users end up at the same place at the same time and there is not much to do or complain about I guess.
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:30 PM   #43
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I never considered Hitchens Pond as wilderness, with the upper dam rebuilt in 1994, and actively used roads there. I think the whole Hitchens/Bog/Lows area is just a primitive region with a heavy feeling of development visible all too frequently along the entire route.
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Old 08-31-2009, 08:46 AM   #44
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I want to thank everyone again for their helpful advice and interesting discussion. We visited Bog River/Lows Lake last week and it was a wonderful time for our family. The kind folks at Raquette River Outfitters were knowledgeable and helpful. We left on Sunday morning and stayed for two nights at a beautiful site on the lake. Leaving on a Sunday was a good call because we passed about 15-20 groups returning. When we reached the main area of the lake where most of the sites are clustered, we were met by Dawn, the very nice and helpful ranger, who informed us that only a few sites were already taken. That was good news because I had about reached my limit of paddling. The first night we were by ourselves and the second night a large group with kids moved in to the next site. Although the tranquility was gone, they were a happy but not rowdy bunch and it was better than worrying that my own kids’ bickering was shattering someone else’s peace and quiet (although if it did I apologize). At dinner the second night, a few groups paddled by, disappointed that the sites were taken and weary of looking. This was the stressful scenario I had feared and luckily avoided, the paddling anxiously from site to site, tired and wanting dinner, wondering how we would manage if all the sites were full. The trip back out was great – the weather was perfect, we were visited by the pelican from the scout camp and the kids were thrilled, the water temp was perfect for swimming. It wasn’t anything like the Saco River as I had first imagined (http://www.boston.com/news/local/mai...e__carousing/).
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:42 PM   #45
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Pelican

On a sad note, the pelican was captured and brought to a wildlife rehabilitator, but soon died of illnesses under review.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:46 PM   #46
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AC,
Glad to hear that you enjoyed your trip, but where are the pictures?

Oh, and your link has that parentheses causing a problem, try this:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mai...he__carousing/
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:45 PM   #47
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Well, I have been looking over this thread for while, and I thought I would put in my two cents. On Aug. 21, myself, my doughter, and 3 close friends put in at the lower dam on the bog river and paddled, often in the rain, up to the upper dam. The back story involves us camping at Rollins Pond and doing day trips. This if for many reasons, but in the future, we would like to do some more Wilderness camping. When we arrived at the falls, a gentleman was parking his jeep with his Rapid fire on top. He gave us a look and within a min. was on his way down the hill. Pack in one hand, boat in the other. By the time we had our gear ready, he had made a second trip up to his vehicle and was prepared to shove off.
We all almost silently agreed to take a while to check out the dam, so as to allow him to get some distance from us. While we are all looking for that experience that some of you are talking about, some of us are not quite able to be so nimble or have the experience that others have... Yet. We are working on it. Despite our attempts at moving quietly in an attempt to show respect to the area, we cannot compete with what this person was doing. But donít think for a second that I was not watching and learning a thing or two from him. I hope we did not, in the end, interfere with his experience- He did not hang around long enough for us to do so, anyway!
I am not a native of the area, but I would give up a lot up to be. Where I am going with this is that I would be embarrassed to be considered anything other then a perfect custodian of the wonderful wilderness that is the ADK. Despite the look he gave us, I (we) make every effort to respect the idea, and campmacfox's idea of having more information on how to improve our impact (lack there of) would certainly be welcomed by me. Each trip up to the ADK humbles me, and one of my reasons for joining this forum is to learn more. While I would not put myself in any of the routy(sp?) groups you are talking about (I look at them in the same way), I was left with the impression that this gentleman felt that we were. There are certainly degrees of this, and if we were any less then courteous to anyone, I would apologies. It is my hope that others feel this way, and so a large lot of cars would not put anyone off.
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Old 09-01-2009, 04:53 PM   #48
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To bad about the guy you met

on Low's. I read through your post several times and I interpret it to mean that he drove into Upper Dam? If so he must be someone "connected". I hate to make generalizations but Placid Boat owners have a reputation of being a bit high and mighty. Of course this is probably true of only a minority of them but thereíre certainly are some that come across as thinking they and their boats are pretty special.
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:55 PM   #49
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Acctually, it was the lower dam, where we put in. I am not trying to dis anyone, just trying to point out that we all come in different boats and sizes.
Ok, so between you and me, I do dream about owning a Hornbeck one day...
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:34 PM   #50
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Yakker,
In your photo, are those folks in the green canoe part of your group? They don't have too much freeboard, do they? Is that the way that hull is built? Or are they loaded down with gear?

And why not build a boat like below? It cost about $150 and weighs 10 lb!!!
BTW, that's the builder when he was 12...
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Old 09-02-2009, 01:22 AM   #51
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Yup, thats Charlie and Linda. They have an old 2 person canoe build by a company in NH. Allthough I once new the maker, I can't remember it... Its an age thing....It does have a low freeboard, and we had little gear with us. But, I did look at some other pics, and from this angle it REALLY looks lower then usual. I am always inpressed how well they do on windy lakes. The low boat makes them look like they don't quite fit, but they do quite well. In this storm they were always out in front. Perhaps it's all the water they were adding on in the storm. I would be much more confortable in my yak if the waves picked up though.

Thats a sharp boat in your pic. How does it deal with rocks? I have put thought into building my own boat, but I am not sure I have the patience. Hmmm.. It is an idea worth revisting though...
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Old 09-02-2009, 01:50 AM   #52
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Here is a picture I just found, with a kayak, if this helps explain it:
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Old 09-05-2009, 03:40 PM   #53
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Yakker, you clearly have a great attitude and do not owe anyone an apology, nor does anyone have any business being snotty toward you. In my book, anyone who respects the environment and his fellow campers has as much right to enjoy the Adirondacks as I do - and the fact that you are eager to learn more makes me happy to share any lake with you.

It's been interesting following this thread and seeing all the competing (and valid) concerns regarding not just Lows Lake, but nearby Lila and Little Tupper. For what it's worth, I just returned yesterday from a 4-night trip, starting on LT and ending at Lows. On one hand, it was late in the season (many schools already back in session) and midweek. On the other hand, it was about as perfect as stretch of weather as we've seen all summer. Putting into LT Monday at mid day, we saw one other party (a pair of kayakers on a day trip). After we had passed them, we more or less had the lake to ourselves until we reached Rock Pond. In Rock Pond, there were two other campsites occupied, but we still had a nice site and a reasonably quiet evening. On the traverse to Lila, we overtook one other party at Hardigan Pond and then played leapfrog with them all the way to Lila, but mostly were on our own. We saw one canoe of fishermen in Lilypad Pond, no camping gear, probably had come for the day from Lila. Of the 3 bigger lakes on our route, Lila felt the most "crowded". A number of sites were occupied and there were a number of paddlers on the lake. Nonetheless, we quickly found a nice site for two nights. We hiked Mt Frederica on our layover day and had the overlook to ourselves for lunch, although we could see quite a few canoes (for a Wednesday) paddling the lake, and ran into 2 parties of hikers coming up as we came down. On the traverse from Lila to Lows, we saw one canoe of fishermen in Clear Pond, and then no-one all the way from Bog Lake through the west end of Lows to our campsite on Grass Pond. The Thursday before Labor Day weekend, we had not only Grass Pond, but seemingly the entire far end of Lows, to ourselves. As we paddled out toward the lower dam on the Friday of Labor Day weekend, we saw only a few paddlers until we reached the narrow part of the lake below Gooseneck Island at around 11 a.m. After that, there was fairly constant traffic coming in. We counted well over 30 boats, although they were in groups camping together, so were definitely not going to take 30+ campsites. Some of the people seemed pretty anxious about which campsites would be available. A few seemed to have already started the weekend's party. It made me glad we were going the "wrong" way.

So...is Lows Lake (or Lila or LT) a campground or is it a wilderness? Like others have said, it really depends when you go. We immensely enjoyed our midweek trip and did not feel crowded, although we did not have a feeling of utter solitude and remoteness either (nor did we expect to). Seems to me that the angst about these lakes on this thread is really about overuse on summer weekends. So if any changes need to be made regarding how the lakes are regulated, perhaps it need only apply to summer weekends? Just thinking out loud here...I'm not sure what the answer is or whether there even is one.
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:03 PM   #54
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Resurrecting this because my question is about "crowds" on the 2-4 weekend..thats the weekend before Memorial Day.

Being so quick after ice out but perhaps at the beginning of fishing season(I dont know) are the campsites filled quickly with people just like me (but who got there first).

Some of us are thinking an old timey trip with hot tents and wood and canvas canoes and old fashioned wool clothing.
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:30 PM   #55
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Resurrecting this because my question is about "crowds" on the 2-4 weekend..thats the weekend before Memorial Day.

Being so quick after ice out but perhaps at the beginning of fishing season(I dont know) are the campsites filled quickly with people just like me (but who got there first).

Some of us are thinking an old timey trip with hot tents and wood and canvas canoes and old fashioned wool clothing.
I never heard of "the 2-4 weekend"??, but in the USA, it's just another weekend, and in Canada, it's Victoria Day. That weekend (May 22-23, 2010) will be approx 4 weeks after ice-out. Regardless, being in mid-May and not a holiday weekend, I wouldn't expect many people to be there, unless it's expected to be good fishing for some reason, but I know nothing about fishing. Take some pictures - it sounds like a very interesting trip.
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:42 PM   #56
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Mr. Yakker

On a stricly personal note, I must confess to a recent aqusition of a PBW Rapidfire.

If you meet up with an old person in your travels, who is built like a fire hydrant, paddling a green Rapidfire, rest assured that I am not "connected" in ANY way to the paddling elite.

You will always be welcome to pull off the water, hop in my boat, and take a paddle - any time!

You, sir have a great attitude. Hope to see you on the water.

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Old 11-05-2009, 10:31 PM   #57
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"Some of us are thinking an old timey trip with hot tents and wood and canvas canoes and old fashioned wool clothing. "

Than sounds good. Back in the 70's I did the old 44 mile Long Lake to Tupper Lake race in a guideboat. Several hours into the race I was on a windy section of the river with no one else in sight. I was rowing an origional Grant guideboat, had on Bean Boots, felt had dungarees (not jeans) , was feeling pretty good 'til I saw my plastic water bottle, totally ruined the moment. Every now and again I take out my wood canvas Old Town HW and a bamboo fly rod and fish traditional streamers and wets, got to love it.
BTW, wool is still great outdoor clothing. I'll have to get out the whipcord Filson pants and red plad Woolrich shirt next week when I'm back up to camp.

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Old 11-06-2009, 10:50 AM   #58
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From Wiki : In some parts of Canada, the holiday is colloquially known as May Two-Four. This phrase has two meanings: the holiday always falls near the date of May 24, and a two-four is Canadian slang for a case of 24 bottles of beer, a common packaging of the drink in Canada (and a common purchase of those planning to celebrate the weekend).

I am shocked that anyone who has spent time in the Adirondacks does not know this!

And I am surprised that ice out is so early.. Here between Portland and the Whites, ice out is usually the end of April but it doesnt go out in the northern part of the state till mid May.
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:03 AM   #59
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Thanks. I learned TWO things today: "2-4" and "gropple". I live just 5 miles from Canada and spend 2 or 3 weekends up there every year, but this "2-4" thing is a new one!
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:19 AM   #60
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From Wiki : ... and a two-four is Canadian slang for a case of 24 bottles of beer, a common packaging of the drink in Canada ...
24 bottles to a case? Who knew?
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