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Old 04-06-2015, 09:12 PM   #41
nash.p
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Charlie Wilson thanks for your input. I've just recently gotten seriously interested in researching pack canoes, and I have learned that your knowledge is unsurpassed. I am delighted that you have posted in this thread.

Lightweight is very important to me, and I don't mind paying for the lightest. However, I am willing to accept a somewhat heavier boat in return for some speed and straighter tracking. The lightest pack boats, those that are short and beamy, do not appeal to me.

So when I first posted here I had whittled my short list to the RapidFire and the Swift 14 Pack canoe (which apparently has the same hull as the Swift Keewaydin 14, but not outfitted as a pack canoe). Because of the responses, I became open to other options, and perhaps canoes that are a bit shorter, such as the Spitfire.

But honestly, I still desire the Swift Pack 14 with the new carbon innegra textreme option. If you say that is an OK choice it will settle the matter.

There is one point you made in your post that I don't understand. You said pack canoes that are paddled with double blades should have differential rocker, because the low angle strokes generate yaw. I get that the low angle strokes generate yaw. But I don't understand how rocker, or differential rocker, would help.

I do plan to get a low seat canoe, and a double blade paddle. However, since I originally posted I have come to realize that I will also be trying a single paddle.

I will email you for your chart of solo and pack canoe specs.

Thanks!
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Old 04-07-2015, 12:57 AM   #42
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Differential Rocker and TeXtreme

Low angle paddle strokes are sweeps. We can control that somewhat by not carrying the blade aft of the body, but the forward stroke becomes serial onside and offside sweeps, both turning the hull away from the strokes.

Bow rocker increases forward speed somewhat and enables turning. But similar stern rocker encourages excess turning with each stroke, so we tend to reduce stern rocker, sinking it deeper in the water to resist induced yaw.

This also works with tandem canoes; stern paddlers carrying the blade aft of their bodies generate sweeping, almost drawing, turning yaw. Dropping the stern, lessening it's rocker, resists skidding towards those yaw forces.

Most fabrics used in lamination include twisting tow to form thread, then weaving the thread into cloth. The twist engenders about 180 degrees of twist every cm, the weaving about about 180 degrees every .5 cm. When hulls impact obstructions, the resin needs to fracture before the tensile strength of the fabric uncoils and resists destruction. TeXtreme uses aligned tow that kinks roughly 10dg as it overlaps, so the carbon's tensile strength is engaged before the resin fails. Better, but more expensive stuff; 4.7 ox TeXtreme is stronger than 6.3 oz woven carbon. Resin weight adds 45% of fabric weight to both, but TeXtreme is lighter and stronger.

Last edited by charlie wilson; 04-08-2015 at 08:41 AM.. Reason: clarity, diction, spelling
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Old 04-07-2015, 11:58 AM   #43
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Charlie Wilson: "[S]tern rocker encourages excessing turning with each stroke, so we tend to reduce stern rocker, sinking it deeper in the water to resist yaw. . . . Dropping the stern resists skidding towards those yaw forces."

Thanks for the explanation; it makes sense.

I received your private email with your charts. Thanks again! You have information beyond what I have been able to glean from Google searches. It's going to take me some time to appreciate all of it.
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Old 04-08-2015, 05:55 PM   #44
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Charlie Wilson's chart has lots of information. One pack canoe listed there caught my eye: Savage River Wee Lassie. It's 11'-6", 13 lbs. in carbon/kevlar, and available in Textreme. I still think I want a longer boat, but this boat has got me reconsidering that. If my first canoe winds up being 20+ pounds and 14'-15', my second will be something like the Savage River.

I'm trying not to let a potential 2.2 mile portage govern my decision. A 14' 25 lb. canoe is apt to be more versatile than a 11'-6" Wee Lassie. But that Savage River Wee Lassie is quite appealing.
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Old 04-08-2015, 07:20 PM   #45
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I carried a 13'6" 25 pound canoe some last summer and it wasn't too bad on top of a frame backpack. The longest I carried was somewhere between 1 and 1.5 miles and that was over the hill into Bear Lake in the Back River WF. This year I hope to build another canoe that will be 14'10" or so and still keep it under 30#, as it will offer better comfort and performance on the water. I intend to spend more time paddling than portaging, but if I was going to be doing a lot of long carries into small bodies of water where I wouldn't be in the canoe all that long I would see that as tipping the scale the other way.
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Old 04-08-2015, 07:41 PM   #46
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There's another consideration with canoe length that may or may not apply to you. If you intend to do much bushwhacking off trail into those remote ponds, canoe length is definitely a factor in ease of travel, just as important as weight. On one memorable trip with a friend, I had a 10.5 foot Hornbeck, and he had a different 15 foot canoe. While I was able to mostly stay on a relatively straight course as I maneuvered between closely spaced trees, my friend was often forced to zig zag large excursions away from my path because his extra length would not let him easily maneuver between trees.

So for bushwhacking very far I opt for the Hornbeck, but for more open water distance travel with easy trail portages I'll opt for the heavier and longer but faster paddling Rapidfire. Just another case of no one boat being ideal for every situation.
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Old 04-09-2015, 08:24 AM   #47
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Savage River Wee lassie

I owned one for several years. Mine was Carbon/Kevlar with an extra layer of Kevlar. 15# if I remember. I bought mine set up with a kneeling seat as the lightest kneeling canoe you can find. It was super tough and performed well with my 180# plus camping gear. I sold it to a friend who couldn't tolerate it's tenderness, so I converted it to a bottom seat for him. With it's high freeboard and no tumblehome, double paddling is a little awkward, but he likes it.
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Old 04-10-2015, 10:31 PM   #48
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Hello Nash,
Don't think you're the only Michigander to log onto this site, but congratulations on finding this site. I really enjoy logging on here.
I wanted to alert you to the fact that Swift has a demo center on Georgian Bay. I don't know where you are at in Michigan, from where I am at in Oakland County, it would not be an objectionable drive.
I paddle a large solo canoe for fishing, until this year my son fished out of it with me. He has his own boat now. It is a Wenonah Solo Plus, definitely not the boat for you. I have paddled this canoe for 6 years, and I am pretty good at leaning it when river paddling. It does bring me to a point, (finally) our Michigan rivers are pretty swift, we may not have whitewater to speak of, you will most certainly appreciate a small amount of rocker.
I look forward to seeing a report from your trip.
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Old 04-21-2015, 06:48 PM   #49
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Im in the same boat. Being a bit on the tall side (6'2" 200lbs) I hate being crammed in a kayak. As a fisherman I've always loved canoes more anyways. The Wee Lassies are a bit small for me to be an all around rig. I will most likely be using it at my parents house on the St. Lawrence as well.

The slipstream impulse 13 is really catching my eye. I would have thought I would spend over a grand on a solo canoe if you asked me a few years ago, but I am really considering it. Every canoe I have ever paddle was a big two person anchor. Usually leaking. So I think I deserve to treat myself to a sub 20lbs solo canoe.

I am looking forward to trying one out on the water at the Paddlefest in saratoga in may.

Does anyone here have an impulse?
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Old 04-27-2015, 10:15 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottymeegs View Post

Does anyone here have an impulse?
I just tonight placed an order for a Sportduo 13, which is basically an Impulse with two seats… so I can take the occasional passenger. Ordered it a bit wider and deeper, with scuppers, in carbon/kevlar. A nice long chat with Stan over the custom details, no money required, I get to try it, then decide if I want to buy it!


Slistream be at Paddlefest, I'll be in the woods fishing with my brothers who are flying in from Ca. for the trip... I may even have the new boat to show off!

I'll have a full report!
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Old 04-28-2015, 08:42 AM   #51
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The double paddle eliminates the need for corrective strokes and increases forward speed through higher cadence, but on alder choked Adirondack streams and cedar closed Pine Barrens rivers it is useless. The 230-260cm wingspan catches in overhead brush. In those conditions a 46-47 in single blade paddle is a wonderful propulsion tool. Straight blades are more effective for draws but the limited reach of low seating position suggests bents are better for forward movement.

Pack canoes are more responsive to the single blade with seating somewhat higher than a 5/8" slab of foam glued to the bottom, and tumble-homed designs have significant advantage as the tuck greatly improves paddler reach across the rail. Unfortunately, tumblehome increases cost as a two piece mold must be used which increases production time.

There are just three builders offering tumblehomes Pack Canoes; Old Town, Placid boatworks and Swift canoe. All others, whether in the minimalist tradition or more rugged, tripping oriented hulls have straight or flared sides that are problematical for single stick paddling where the paddle shaft needs be vertical. Old Town's 13' Next weighs 59 lbs, and so a chore on carries. The OP's yen for forward speed devolves to a choice between Placid's 15 ft RapidFire and Swift's 14 ft Keewaydin 14. Both are Yost small tripper designs, both are infused with integral rail systems. While we can sharpen the pin point by comparing RF's slight speed advantage verse Kee's slightly improved efficiency, the choice really comes down to which outfitting system better fits the OP's backside and paddling style.

Last edited by charlie wilson; 04-28-2015 at 11:09 AM..
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Old 04-28-2015, 03:46 PM   #52
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Kee 14 and single blade

I own one with a kneeling seat. it's a real effortless paddle and turns nice with very little heel. I paddle sitting at times and really like the multiple position options of a kneeling type seat. I bring a double as a fallback when tired or in a hurry due to physical limitations.. One advantage of single paddling not mentioned is quietness and lack of movement to sneak up on wildlife or just want quiet. The is particularly true when using an in-water recovery. Ever notice how you see and hear double blade paddlers way off?
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Old 05-17-2015, 11:38 AM   #53
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Canoes

I just went through the process of choosing a solo canoe. I liked the idea of the Placid Rapidfire but the folks over at P-Net thought that because of my weight (240 lbs) it wouldn't be appropriate for me.

I was also torn between pack style SOF and a kneel/sit canoe. I've only used the latter, but the idea of the speed of a double paddle was inviting. Swift caught my attention because they had a system with a kneel/sit convertible to SOF. When I discussed that with a Swift dealer he said that Swift no longer makes it due to some inherent design problems with it.

I demoed a few Swifts. 13.5 Pack, Kee 15 and Kee 15 pack, Osprey and Shearwater and fell in love with the Kee. I had a hard time choosing between the regular Kee and the pack. They had a Kee 15 in stock, at a really good price because it had been on the water before. After discussing it with the Swift representative, he saw no reason I couldn't get a SOF seat (held in place with industrial strength Velcro) and I'd have the option of SOF or kneel/sit depending on my mood and intended purpose. So I bought the Kee 15 (with slider seat) and ordered a seat for a Kee Pack.
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Old 05-29-2015, 06:14 PM   #54
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First Pack or Solo Canoe

Help me spend some money

I too am in the market for my first Pack or Solo Canoe. I thought about starting a new thread, but this one has a lot of info, so I'll keep it going, hopefully.

I have canoed since I was a wee lad, a Boy Scout actually. Back then it was a 90lb Grummin. As an Adult, I own a OT 16' Penobscot Royalex(sp?) It weights 58lbs. I use it a few times a year if I'm lucky. I mostly use it at the St. Regis Canoe area or the Saranac Lakes. I also have a sea kayak. My usual route at St. Regis is just the 3/4 mile or so portage to St. Regis Pond from Little Clear, then camp. If my wife is with me we double paddle, otherwise I turn the canoe around and sit in the bow seat and solo it.

I want to do more remote portages for fishing, and the rest of the St. Regis carries, along with other canoe treks in the DAKS. But I also just love canoeing for the joy of paddling too. While I have a quiver of skis, I really want to keep from amassing a quiver of canoes, if I can help it. If for no other reason than to save my wallet from melt down.

I'm torn between a Pack Canoe and a Solo.

When I kayak, I do get tired of sitting in that position for more than a few hours. The same could be said about sitting high in a canoe, but I have the option of kneeling to relieve any fatigue.

For those of you with Pack Canoes with low seats, what is your fatigue factor if any?

Are the low seats in a Pack Canoe more comfortable than the typical kayak? Meaning is the seat higher off the floor than a typical kayak?

Where can I demo or test drive these Canoes? I see places that rent by the day, but no mention of come try them out for a spin.

Price is always a consideration, but I do understand, you get what you pay for.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.
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Old 05-29-2015, 06:53 PM   #55
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Your last question is the easy one to answer. In the Adirondacks you can try out for free canoes from Hornbeck or Placidboatworks, two of the boat styles you would be most interested in. Whether you buy or not, you can try their canoes for free.
Visit Pete and company at: http://hornbeckboats.com/
Or visit Joe and company at: http://placidboatworks.com/

I'm sure Dave at Hemlock would also let you try out a few:
http://www.hemlockcanoe.com/

Other places, such as outfitters within the Blue Line would probably rent to buy trial paddles for you. You are probably familiar with them:
http://www.canoeoutfitters.com/
http://www.macscanoe.com/
http://raquetteriveroutfitters.com/
http://www.mountainmanoutdoors.com/
http://ticknerscanoe.com/

I have a Hornbeck and a Placidboat. The Hornbeck has the standard sit on bottom seat. I use the Hornbeck for true bushwhacks to remote ponds in the western Adirondacks, and it excels for that task. A few years ago I paddled across the Adirondacks (starting from Boonville, ending in Plattsburgh) in it, including the big lakes, totaling 185 miles with 62 miles of portages. It was the only canoe at the time I would consider for that task, and it performed well, even though the seating position required use of a double blade paddle. It was ok for that canoe, but I generally dislike using a double blade. I paddled on that trip for about 10-12 hours a day for a week and enjoyed it very much. Occasionally I would fold one leg or another to change position for comfort. I still use that Hornbeck for distant backwoods bushwhack trips.

My Placidboat Rapidfire is better suited to longer and bigger water trips than the Hornbeck. It is less suited for bushwhacks, due to its longer length (tougher to wind in between closely spaced trees) and heavier weight. I had Joe install the highest possible rail mounted seat, and I use that canoe exclusively with a single blade paddle. It flies, and I have done well a few times in that boat on the 90-mile race. The higher seat plus a thick gel pad to get me even higher allows me to adjust my leg position for comfort and to more effectively use a single blade paddle.
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Last edited by Wldrns; 05-30-2015 at 04:25 PM..
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:09 PM   #56
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Thanks for the lengthy reply Wldrns. I'll look into test paddling some Honrbecks and PBWs.

Anyone have an opinion on the comfort of the sit on floor canoe vs a sit on floor kayak? About the same? Or, without the deck of the kayak, you have more room to change up positions? Just curious, I never paddled a canoe from that position.

Thanks.
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Old 05-30-2015, 03:12 PM   #57
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I thin it may depend on your size and the size of the kayak or canoe in question. I paddled a kayak once years ago that I could just barely wedge my legs and feet into. Once they were in I cold not move them. My legs went to sleep in 10 minutes. In the canoe I built last year my feet were pushed together by the shape of the hull if I extended my legs out straight. This also caused my legs to go to sleep but not as fast. My new canoe will have a bit more room and a flatter bottom so my feet can be separate if they want to be, and I think that will help. Being able to stick my knees up for short periods is also nice in a canoe.
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Old 05-30-2015, 03:20 PM   #58
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I don't know about sit-on-bottom kayaks because I've never been in one. However, your own anatomy is the best gauge: I have a Hornbeck and my posterior becomes very sore after an hour, but this is generally for the first trip of the season. It gets better, at least for me, after more trips. However, I would strongly advise a test paddle long enough to check out if the top of the standard Hornbeck seat digs into your spine the way that it does for me. Pete, the Sage of Hornbeckistan, has a number of adaptations and options which can remedy this condition. I was able to get an "Easyback" seat accessory from him, which is simple, uncomplicated, and works great. I don't know if they're still available, but, as I say, each body has its own quirks.
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Old 05-30-2015, 04:03 PM   #59
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I have a Hornbeck and a 17' sea kayak. I find the sea kayak to be uncomfortable mainly due to the inability to move my legs to different positions. Without a deck to restrict leg movement, I never tire in the Hornbeck. The foam seat and back rest certainly are simple yet comfortable enough for a full day's paddle.
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Old 05-30-2015, 08:13 PM   #60
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Slipstream Watercraft

Nash,

I'm late to the party but if you got to Slipstream Facebook page they have pics of the Impulse with a slightly higher seat and a single blade paddler.
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