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Old 03-24-2008, 05:32 PM   #21
stripperguy
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Brian,
Do you think that the 4 oz in and out gives you enough strength? How thick are your strips? Any photos?
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Old 03-24-2008, 06:22 PM   #22
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Really liked the step by step photos. I don't have the time just yet, but I'd love to do one in the future. Keep them coming.....
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Old 03-25-2008, 03:16 PM   #23
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I've not had any issues with the 4 oz glass. Of course I'm not real hard on the boat, my other canoe is a Wenonah Prism, Kelvar ultralight, so that gets banged up more. I cuts my strips myself and they were sized just a little under a 1/4 inch, but perhaps slightly thicker then 3/16. Of course after all the sanding and scraping, they were down to 3/16. I also don't have an outer or inner stem. I used two bias cut pieces of glass to strengthen the outer stem area and on the inside used a fillet of thick epoxy with micro balloons. I then covered the fillet with a bias cut glass strip.

I have some pics and will post them tomorrow,

Brian
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Old 03-25-2008, 11:32 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stripperguy View Post
..... If I can squeak by with a single layer of 4 oz in and out, and keep my strips thin, i have a shot! ........ I also use as light weight gunwhale material and keep the seat frames and thwarts as light as possible as well.
.......
Suggestion: Don't think in terms of "squeaking by." You aren't "by" until you retire it because of simple old age. Think in the same terms you think in when doing your R & D. Design and build to the requirements, and then use the finished boat within the requirements you designed and built for. A single 4-oz, layer will be quite adequate as long as you use the canoe as a canoe but will prove quite inadequate as soon as you use it like an LST hitting a beachhead.

A couple other ideas for keeping the weight down, tried on this past winter's project but not yet tested in the water:

1. Knowing that the boat itself would float, though very low in the water, after capsizing, I skipped the air chambers. To provide flotation I'll tie in a drybag containing a coiled, uncompressed 2" thick sleeping pad and an uncompressed sleeping bag. That "package" will stay tied in on portages and provide 65 lbs of additional flotation.

2. I skipped the outwale. For strength, in conjunction with the inwale, I applied an inch of carbon fiber tow to the outside of the hull, under the 'glass, right below the sheer. For protection from abrasion where the outwale isn't, I intend to apply a strip of adhesive-backed UHMW tape, which I haven't found yet. I then added low-density wood spacer blocks inside the sheer, followed by a sleeved, small dimension, low-density wood inwale. High and dry it feels quite stiff. Time will tell how it feels in battle.

3. I used no wooden stems. I lapped the strips at the stems, alternating directions and once the interior became accessible I troweled in a fillet of quite stiff epoxy and microballoons with a concave surface to make it easy to lap the interior 'glass. This construction has given me yeoman service on my first stripper, now 20+ years old.

4. Thwarts are low-density wood, an inch in diameter, sleeved for strength.

Good luck on the build. The satisfaction is well worth every minute you spend on it.

b
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:02 AM   #25
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Thanks, gentlemen.
VTskier,
I looked up your design, from Northwest Canoe, right? It looks like your boat has a bit more hull than the DY, so I'm encouraged by the final weight of your build. When I calculated the weight, I assumed a final strip thickness of .15, that's what might be left after sanding 3/16 strips.
Graybeard,
I tend to be pretty hard on my boats. I really don't treat them too well, I can always just build another. I am still paddling a 25 year old stripper myself, and built with polyester resin, too!
It's difficult for me to estimate the structural rigidity of the composite layup in the cross section of the DY Special. That's why I appreciate the real world testing that both of you are doing. My concern, or dare I say fear, is that I'll use a single layer of 4 oz in and out, only to find that the hull is too waek. Now I'm stuck with a covering coat or two on the outside, and may need to add another haf layer of glass. Other that that, I don't mind a safety factor of 1...
I also do not use any stem pieces, just the strips in a full lap joint at bow and stern. I stll have a lifetime supply of Cabosil leftover from building my K19 sailboat, so low density stem fillets are easy enough. I do generally add decks and bulkheads at both ends. Everyone assumes that I do this for the floatation, which is handy to have. But really, I can't reach all the way into the stems to sand well and/or do a clean job glassing up in there. So on go the decks and bulkheads, stripped of course. It adds maybe 1 lb to the total build weight, and also strengthens the ends of the boat incredibly so.
For thwarts, gunwales and seat frames, I'm fond of mahogony. Good low density, and more than adequate strength.
Anyway, thanks again guys, I'm always looking for ways to improve.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:12 AM   #26
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Stripperguy,

Didn't have a chance to grab the pictures, I will tonight. On the gunwales, I used ash, for the outwale its 5/8 square, Inner is 1/2 x 1 inch. In the center area of the canoe, where the thwarts and seat attach, I added 1/2 x 1 x 3 blocks to create enough strength and depth for mounting and it allows draining the canoe easier. Also since these block are only in the center of the boat, less weight then going full length or having a thicker inner gunwale the entire length of the canoe.

I went with cherry for the thwarts & seat frame & deck since I love the look of cherry. If it added a pound or two, it was a happy trade off since I love paddling and looking out at the cherry thwart & deck in the sunlight.
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:08 AM   #27
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Pictures of the Merlin are here:

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...on=tageditmany
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:20 AM   #28
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Brian,
Your link takes me to photobucket, but not to your photos...do have a key word or something to search for??
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:59 AM   #29
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Brian,
Never mind, I found your pictures, I searched for your user name VT_Bent_Rider
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...e/IMG_1651.jpg
Above is a direct link.
I really like the looks, you did a great job!!
I especially like the seat, a true work of art!
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:30 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stripperguy View Post
..... My concern, or dare I say fear, is that I'll use a single layer of 4 oz in and out, only to find that the hull is too waek. Now I'm stuck with a covering coat or two on the outside, and may need to add another haf layer of glass. ......
If your concern is resistance to abrasion, consider adding graphite to the outside covering coat below the lwl. I'm convinced by both discussions before doing so and experience after that the graphite helps prevent abrasive objects from getting enough "grip" on the surface to do any significant damage.

If your concern is rupturing the hull, breaking the wood strips, you could always add a half-layer to the "uncovered" inside and probably get as much reinforcement as you would from an outside half-layer, but of course you won't know if you need it until too late

Considering what my first stripper has been through I suspect it's a peace-of-mind issue, not a serious threat---but that's opinion, not data.

VTskier;
Nice job, indeed! Hope to see it on the water.

b
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:35 PM   #31
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Graybeard,
No, I'm concerned about hull strength and costant flexing that can lead to a low cycle fatigue failure in the laminate. Some refer to this as 'oilcanning', but in a composte build up, it's not a good thing.
Interesting thought about the graphite added to the resin. If I understand correctly, you're using the graphite to provide some third body lubrication as it erodes and transfers to the offending objects. There are commercailly available that perform a similar function, but most are aimed at performance sailing hulls.
I generally protect against abrasion by using a strip of Dynel fiber. Dynel is still (after nearly 50 years) the highest abrasion resistant man made fiber available. Any of the traditional composites can't compete, Kevlar, E glass, Carbon Fiber all suffer badly with abrasive wear. Sglass does a bit better. Then come some of the other synthetics, nylon and polpropylenes, but still not as good as Dynel. Sorry, I do work in the field of tribology (the study of friction, wear and lubrication) and get carried away.
Dynel does have a major drawback...it soaks an incredible amount of resin, is not available in lightweights and really doesn't look so good. But for a serviceable surface, it's pretty good!
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:16 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stripperguy View Post
Graybeard,
No, I'm concerned about hull strength and costant flexing that can lead to a low cycle fatigue failure in the laminate. Some refer to this as 'oilcanning', but in a composte build up, it's not a good thing.
Mike; I'm not an engineer (No doubt obvious to you) but do give thought to issues that engineers are better qualified to address. When thinking about the ability of a hull to withstand the routine stresses of propelling a loaded hull through water with a paddle, I look to the accumulated experiences of those who have come before and see very few, if any, structural failures of this kind even among paddlers who put more hard miles on a canoe in a season than I'm likely to put on mine in a decade. Yes, there seem to be some in a few thin-shell constructions but none that I can think of in strippers with their greater beam-strength. To be on the safe side, I avoid designs that have areas without significant curvature in at least one direction. Then I move on to the threats of abrasion and rupture. Perhaps I don't look far enough.
Quote:
Interesting thought about the graphite added to the resin. If I understand correctly, you're using the graphite to provide some third body lubrication as it erodes and transfers to the offending objects. There are commercailly available that perform a similar function, but most are aimed at performance sailing hulls.
What I have done is straight out of The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction, 1985 edition. I blend resin, hardener, graphite powder, and colloidal silica and apply as the fabric filler after initial cure of the wet-out. It's quite an experience; it gives new meaning to "herding cats," and makes serving billiard balls on an overhead tray look like child's play. But when hitting barely submerged, rough, rocks at cruising speed with a loaded canoe, the canoe always slips off to one side or the other often without trace, occasionally with an insignificant scratch. (I attribute the behavior to the graphite but have no evidence that plain resin would have behaved differently.) I also speculate that this "slipping off" behavior lessens the risk of structural damage to the hull by preventing full absorption of the boat's momentum.
Quote:
I generally protect against abrasion by using a strip of Dynel fiber. Dynel is still (after nearly 50 years) the highest abrasion resistant man made fiber available. Any of the traditional composites can't compete, Kevlar, E glass, Carbon Fiber all suffer badly with abrasive wear. Sglass does a bit better. Then come some of the other synthetics, nylon and polpropylenes, but still not as good as Dynel. Sorry, I do work in the field of tribology (the study of friction, wear and lubrication) and get carried away.
Dynel does have a major drawback...it soaks an incredible amount of resin, is not available in lightweights and really doesn't look so good. But for a serviceable surface, it's pretty good!
Veeeery interesting! It sounds like an ideal material for a localized layer on the inside right where a paddler tends to grind in dirt and sand---if it were available in light weights.
b
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Old 03-27-2008, 08:16 PM   #33
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Open invitation

To those who have considered building their own canoe but were not sure how to begin:
I'm nearly ready to start stapling cedar.
If you want to see how a stripper is built, then the time is near!
Contact me and we'll see about a reasonable time.

And Graybeard, you have very sound and valid justification for your efforts. I know you made your goal, I hope to reach mine using the shared knowledge floating around here. Thanks again for the input.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stripperguy View Post
Brian,
Never mind, I found your pictures, I searched for your user name VT_Bent_Rider
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...e/IMG_1651.jpg
Above is a direct link.
I really like the looks, you did a great job!!
I especially like the seat, a true work of art!
While I built the seat. I can't take credit for the design. I purchased the seat plan from
http://www.greenval.com

I really like the fantail design of the caning. Took some time to cane it, my first time doing that, but it was well worth it.

Brian
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Old 04-05-2008, 10:19 PM   #35
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OK, here's the next few steps. You can see how the forms are attached to the strongback using carriage bolts. The forms are already screwed to a piece of 2 x 6 that has been planed on the 2 mounting surfaces. After all of the forms are attached, a string line is run from 1 stem to the other, to align the keel line. And here I am cutting up the cedar into 3/16 thick strips. Lastly, you can see the pile of strips beginning to grow. The next step will be to cover the forms with masking so not to glue the strips to the forms. I need about 70 full length strips for the hull, and a handfull more for the decks and bulkheads. costs so far:
plywood for forms $40
2 x 6 x 8ft for attaaching forms $6
Western red cedar $218
Smell of cedar that takes me back 30 years...priceless.
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Old 04-06-2008, 11:15 AM   #36
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Thanks for posting pics of the process. I wish I had the time to see it in action. Perhaps in the future.
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Old 04-06-2008, 11:53 AM   #37
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Really enjoy watching the step by step! Thanks and keep em coming.......
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Old 04-09-2008, 09:49 PM   #38
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OK, here is a little more progress...
You can see that the forms are covered with a couple layers of masking tape to keep the glued strips from sticking to the forms. I've cut a slot in some leftover plwood and attached it to the forms to hold the strips while the glue is applied. I generally start stripping at the 4 inch waterline and work my way to the sheer. For those of you not familiar, remember that the boat is keel up, or upside down at the moment. After the glue is on the strip, just hold it in place next to the last one, and staple, staple, staple. Pretty soon, you can see the shape and character of the boat appear.
13 hours invested so far and counting...
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Old 04-10-2008, 07:40 AM   #39
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That is coming along great ! But I have an important question....
Is there beer in that refrigerator ?
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Old 04-10-2008, 08:16 AM   #40
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Mr. Rio,
No...the fridge is empty, sorry man
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