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Old 06-04-2008, 09:40 PM   #21
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As for the wording of the regulation banning planes, I'm surprised you haven't read this page on DEC's site. The word "aircraft" is used, banning float planes, helicopters, hang gliders, and blimps, too, from the existing regs.
Those regs prohibit operation on the specified lakes and ponds - I was thinking of someone being let down form the helicopter hoovering above tree line.

Can people sky dive into the forest preserve?
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:48 PM   #22
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Perhaps if I knew how a helicopter "hoovered"... by dressing in lingerie, perhaps?
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:58 PM   #23
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Perhaps if I knew how a helicopter "hoovered"... by dressing in lingerie, perhaps?
Well...as long as we are hijacking the thread to talk about the real important stuff, here is a "hovering" question for you. If it takes a plane 4 hours to fly from California to New York, but it only takes 3 hours for the earth to rotate the distance from California to New York, then why not just go up in a baloon in California, wait three hours, then come down in NY? Seems to me it would save an hour of travel time and a lot of jet fuel.

Wait, maybe that goes the other way - go up in the baloon in NY and come down in California. whatever, it should work.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:11 PM   #24
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Perhaps if I knew how a helicopter "hoovered"... by dressing in lingerie, perhaps?
Perhaps it is by capturing the airflow created by the spinning props and using that as a vacuum? Is there a regulation concerning the collection of pine needles via this method?

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Old 06-04-2008, 10:15 PM   #25
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Perhaps if I knew how a helicopter "hoovered"... by dressing in lingerie, perhaps?
Is this obsession you have with inanimate objects in lingerie treatable?
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:41 AM   #26
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Well...as long as we are hijacking the thread to talk about the real important stuff, here is a "hovering" question for you. If it takes a plane 4 hours to fly from California to New York, but it only takes 3 hours for the earth to rotate the distance from California to New York, then why not just go up in a baloon in California, wait three hours, then come down in NY? Seems to me it would save an hour of travel time and a lot of jet fuel.

Wait, maybe that goes the other way - go up in the baloon in NY and come down in California. whatever, it should work.
You're serious? For the same reason that when you throw a ball straight up in the air, it comes down where you threw it from, not in the next state. And why hot air balloons don't start whizzing westward at 600mph as soon as they leave the ground. Inertia, and the fact that the atmosphere spins along with the earth. But imagine how windy it would be if it didn't! Bet that would keep the blackflies off.

And it would go from NY to California. The earth rotates eastward.
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:48 AM   #27
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There are only two parcels of land in private holdings on Lows. The Boy Scouts, who maintain a motorboat for emergency use only (along with a DEC Ranger), and the Parker camp, which is the only prominently visible structure on the entire lake. The Boy Scouts have no interest in float planes or recreational motorboating. Mr Parker has made his anti-wilderness designation argument well known at public hearings and elsewhere, and he also happens to be the Hamilton County Sheriff. Go figure.

Whoaaa, not true at all.

OK, maybe in theory but Bill, I assure you I've spent a bit of time on lows and also seen the scouts (last summer in July for instance) using that boat (a pontoon if memory serves) for recreation and not emergency. I've on other occassions in years past seen boats used as well.

Taking scouts to an island for swimming is NOT an emergency.

As far as the float planes, I was certain they were supposed to be phased out but last fall a plane landed 2x (same group two loads of gear). Just like the military A-10s I wasn't terribly bothered. I suppose because I'd love to fly a float plane myself, but the guys that came out of the plane were real jackasses and just plain rude.

I assumed the plane was for the house on the edge of grass pond but in fact it was campers.

Anyway, I cannot think of too many paddlers that want there nice wilderness paddle interupted by a plane dropping from the sky onto them. At least we can sound all patriotic when the A-10s fly over, but it's hard to feel bad for 4 physically capable men who were just too lazy to paddle in and carry their gear over the short portage from Hitchins to Lows.
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Old 06-05-2008, 07:35 AM   #28
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OK, maybe in theory but Bill, I assure you I've spent a bit of time on lows and also seen the scouts (last summer in July for instance) using that boat (a pontoon if memory serves) for recreation and not emergency. I've on other occassions in years past seen boats used as well.

Taking scouts to an island for swimming is NOT an emergency.
Hmmm, I agree with that. I'm involved with the scouts there only during pre-season high adventure training. During the summer when I am on the lake on my own I've only seen them swimming at Scout and Pole Islands with canoes. Using motorboats is certainly not necessary nor desireable to get there. The current waterfront director needs to be better educated and I'll have to see about that. Although frequently there will be entire troops of disabled scouts in camp... physically mobile but not able to effectively paddle a canoe very far. Before I speak too soon it could be a case of allowing them some off-site adventure via motorboat.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:00 AM   #29
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You're serious? For the same reason that when you throw a ball straight up in the air, it comes down where you threw it from, not in the next state. And why hot air balloons don't start whizzing westward at 600mph as soon as they leave the ground.
...and for the same reason that when you bounce in the back seat of one of those blue school buses you don't fly through the back window.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:02 AM   #30
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OK, maybe in theory but Bill, ....
Hey! Don't mistake me for Wldrns. I'm younger and better looking!
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:20 AM   #31
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Wldrns,

While you are at it, you might check out the legitimacy of the BSA use of the aluminium boat that travels almost constantly back and forth between the Boy Scout camp and Boone's Landing. The noise really dominates the lake. I do appreciate that they have the legal right to do this but I wonder what message it sends to their charges.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:41 AM   #32
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Wldrns,

While you are at it, you might check out the legitimacy of the BSA use of the aluminium boat that travels almost constantly back and forth between the Boy Scout camp and Boone's Landing. The noise really dominates the lake. I do appreciate that they have the legal right to do this but I wonder what message it sends to their charges.
I will certainly ask about that. This will be the first year in the past 18 that my high adventure training week will be cut very abbreviated, as I have to leave for the Yukon before our leader training trek at Low's. Normally I get to chat with the Camp Sabattis Ranger and the DEC Ranger while there. I'll hook up with them later if some of my compatriots can't get an answer for me.
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:54 AM   #33
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I spent some time last summer helping at the Sabattis Scout camp and if I was informed correctly regarding the use of the pontoon boat, there was an agreement made between them and the state at the time the state acquired the surrounding property that they could continue to use the boat to transport scouts to the islands (for overnight trips, etc.), such as those who are physically/mentally disabled or are non-swimmers. Scout regs prohibit non-swimmers from using canoes unless they have a certified scout lifeguard in the boat with them. Not all troops have the luxury to accommodate their non-swimmers with a lifeguard. As I said, this is only my understanding and perhaps someone else can correct me or verify my understanding.
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Old 06-05-2008, 11:22 AM   #34
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I spent some time last summer helping at the Sabattis Scout camp and if I was informed correctly regarding the use of the pontoon boat, there was an agreement made between them and the state at the time the state acquired the surrounding property that they could continue to use the boat to transport scouts to the islands (for overnight trips, etc.), such as those who are physically/mentally disabled or are non-swimmers. Scout regs prohibit non-swimmers from using canoes unless they have a certified scout lifeguard in the boat with them. Not all troops have the luxury to accommodate their non-swimmers with a lifeguard. As I said, this is only my understanding and perhaps someone else can correct me or verify my understanding.
Your general information regarding BSA swimming/lifeguard regulations is correct. It is also correct that BSA/Sabattis is specifically allowed by DEC UMP to continue use of motorboats on Low's Lake. I suspect what you said regarding disabled scouts at Sabattis is also corrrect. I have just written a letter to the Council leadership who I know, with concerns already expressed here and for clarification of Council specific policies regarding motorboat use (and LNT model) at Sabattis.
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Old 06-05-2008, 04:51 PM   #35
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I just spoke with the Program Director of Sabattis Scout Reservation, at Hiawatha-Seaway BSA Council in Syracuse. He confirmed that motorboats are used for "non-emergency" use, but use is not routine as part of any regular motorboat scouting program at Sabattis. The primary use is indeed to give non-swimmer disabled scouts a chance to get to scout owned islands. There are weeks during the summer season when several disabled members of troops (or troops comprised entirely of disabled scouts) may be in camp. They would be given a taste of remote site experience by motorboat rather than canoe.

He also said they take very seriously their charge of being responsible environmental stewards of Low's Lake. Each year public campsites around the lake are visited by scout motorboat to remove trash. Last year alone over 1000 pounds (measured, not just estimated) of trash was removed that had been left behind by public campers. That amount of trash is not difficult to believe for anyone who has seen the state of sites that some people leave behind.

In addition, though obviously not an advertised service, public campers in need are frequently assisted with loan of lost or damaged equipment, replacement of food stolen by bears, and for the occasional medical emergency.

Resident summer scout camp season is relatively short, lasting only from the week of the 4th of July through mid August. But during that time nearly 1000 scouts and adults may visit the camp.

The DEC's boat is also docked there and is used on routine patrol as well, so some of the distant sightings of an aluminum motorboat may be the Ranger visiting campsites (although Dawn, the friendly assistant ranger, is usually seen patrolling in a green kayak).
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Old 06-05-2008, 05:27 PM   #36
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Many thanks for looking into the Boy Scout use. Their practices must have changed a bit over the last couple of years. The conduct that you describing really makes them good stewards of Lows.

I am curious about the statement that DEC is using its motorboat for routine patrols. I have not observed this. While the UMP intended to exclude only public use of motorboats, the DEC regulation, when finally adopted, excluded all motorboat use by DEC except for emergency use.
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Old 06-05-2008, 05:32 PM   #37
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I am curious about the statement that DEC is using its motorboat for routine patrols. I have not observed this. While the UMP intended to exclude only public use of motorboats, the DEC regulation, when finally adopted, excluded all motorboat use by DEC except for emergency use.
I hope they continue to allow routine litter patrols, either by the BSA or DEC.
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Old 06-05-2008, 05:35 PM   #38
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Wldrns,
Thanks for taking the time to check this issue out with the Scout office and for posting the info you received! 1000 lbs of trash!?!?! I hate to think what those sites would look like if the scouts didn't spend the voluntary time and effort to clean them up each year!! Thank you Scouts!!
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Old 06-05-2008, 07:36 PM   #39
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I am curious about the statement that DEC is using its motorboat for routine patrols. I have not observed this.
I have. How "routine" I don't know, but I have seen the Ranger visit occupied sites with the boat. The Sabattis director also indicated it was used as such. With one group in particular (that coincindentally had arrived by air) I was very glad he did, as I was some distance away but it was obvious to me they needed to be visited. As I said, the more routine patrols are done on an almost daily basis by Dawn in her green kayak.
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Old 06-06-2008, 12:14 AM   #40
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It still remains that there are private holdings on the lake, regardless of UMP it would absolve them of access and use of the lake in such. That is the biggest picture. If the DEC had the entire lake and easements this wouldn't be an issue. However the could indead designate that as another area, plans could still be abolished I believe. Wildriver knows the best I think in this matter. Cached canoes obviously can't be put on any DEC lands period, or private unless given permission.....
IMO the arguement and discrepency has gone on because of the landholdings and the lack of the ability to enforce any decision in regards to them.
However, I'm sure there is a classification the DEC can designate to the area that will settle the problem and end it including wilderness boundrys, why does the entire lake need to be designated. Include the '12 mile limit' then any overlap means a no fly zone.... Property as ownership doesn't extend into the water... END of sheriff story.
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