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  • #31
    Originally posted by Neil View Post
    Actually, I never thought this thread would make it this far.

    A white (my assumption, correct me if I'm wrong) man and a native American are discussing the history of the Indian Wars and they are in disagreement about the interpretation of that history. What a shocker.

    Not unlike an oil company executive and an ecologist discussing the science behind gloabal warming.

    Thumbs up to the participants for being so civil.
    I too am enjoying the thread and learning a lil along the way .
    Just seems natural that folks may have a discussion and bring civil agruments to the table . Each agreeing to some and refuting others
    'specially these dog days of summer that have set in , always gonna be a lil friction , links and backups to both sides make this an enjoyable thread , at least to me.
    Phil



    “The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.” —Herbert Spencer

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Neil View Post
      How about that.
      When I moved the 4 posts from the Marcellus shale thread to the Fireside I had to come up with a title and not knowing what to use I grabbed Hawk's quote, which I assumed was made tongue in cheek.



      Question:
      Is tribal warfare mostly about getting and controlling the other guy's resources so that your resource-hungry woman will be more inclined to sleep with you?
      Hardly, they (the women) were too busy working.

      We had a great system, Hunt and Fish all day while the woman set up camp, butchered the kill, cooked and cleaned. Then the white man tried to improve on the system.
      "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by redhawk View Post
        Hardly, they (the women) were too busy working.

        We had a great system, Hunt and Fish all day while the woman set up camp, butchered the kill, cooked and cleaned. Then the white man tried to improve on the system.
        An old Native Chief sat in his hut on the rez, smoking a ceremonial pipe and eyeing two Government officials sent to interview him. "Chief Two Eagles", asked one official, "you have observed the white man for 90 yrs. You've seen his wars and his technological advances, you've seen his advances and the damage he has done". TheChief nodded in agreement. The official continued, "considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?". The Chief stared at the Government Officials for over a minute and then calmly replied................. "When the white man found the land, the natives were running it. No taxes, no debt,plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, women did all the work, Medecine Man free, Indian man spent all day hunting and fishing and all night having sex". Then the Chief leaned back and smiled, "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that!
        The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.

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        • #34
          Did you know that vegetarian is an indigenous word? Translated it means "Can't hunt"!

          As the Lone Ranger and Tonto were riding along towards the north,
          they spotted a war party of 50 Apaches coming at them. They turned
          south and spotted a war party of 100 braves coming at them. Then,
          they turned east and spotted a war party of 150 braves coming at
          them. Finally, they turned west and spotted a war party of
          200 braves coming at them.
          The Lone Ranger turned to his friend and said, "Well, Tonto,
          this is the end, there's not much we can do."
          Tonto looked back at the Lone Ranger, and replied, "What you
          mean WE, white man?"
          A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

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          • #35
            Custer always wore a red shirt into battle. On day his aide asked him why.

            Custer replied "If I get wouunded the troops won't see the blood and lose heart."

            Several weeks later the Aide came riding up to Custer and said "Colonel, Sitting Bulls and Crazy Horse and 1800 Sioux are riding down on us. Do you want you red shirt?"

            Custer replied: "No, bring my my brown pants"
            "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

            Comment


            • #36
              lol... hey I know i wasn't going to post on this thread but I mentioned archeological evidence about pre-columbian life and did not post a link to back it up. Although most of the evidence from the pre-columbian culture, especially North America does not last without the written word and objects that quickly degenerate such as wood and skin, the bones sometimes can last longer if preserved by clay. I understand the garden of eden jokes are just [jokes] and survival has never been easy and human nature is, for lack of a better word, very violent.

              Take a read:
              easier:


              If you like the science stuff:


              And regarding the pre-meditated destruction and genocide of native peoples by the United States, there is an interesting interpretation on the poison blanket biological warfare theory as well:



              And a post on the Mountain Meadows massacre which Hawk and I referred to in the discussion where Mormons killed American settlers. Posted to emphasize that I do know that "white people" kill each other over land as well, i.e. trying to demphasize "race" in the discussion:



              Hawk I do appreciate the debate and although you may not agree from our discussions on this board, I'm guessing you and I would probably get along rather well in person. To defeat my own arguments I would offer that the United States should have taken the higher road based on its society of laws and not broken it's treaties. History is ripe with atrocities and land grabs, the Native American populations of the Great Plains not being above human nature nor is America with its "laws".
              A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
                lol... hey I know i wasn't going to post on this thread but I mentioned archeological evidence about pre-columbian life and did not post a link to back it up. Although most of the evidence from the pre-columbian culture, especially North America does not last without the written word and objects that quickly degenerate such as wood and skin, the bones sometimes can last longer if preserved by clay. I understand the garden of eden jokes are just [jokes] and survival has never been easy and human nature is, for lack of a better word, very violent.

                Take a read:
                easier:


                If you like the science stuff:


                And regarding the pre-meditated destruction and genocide of native peoples by the United States, there is an interesting interpretation on the poison blanket biological warfare theory as well:



                And a post on the Mountain Meadows massacre which Hawk and I referred to in the discussion where Mormons killed American settlers. Posted to emphasize that I do know that "white people" kill each other over land as well, i.e. trying to demphasize "race" in the discussion:



                Hawk I do appreciate the debate and although you may not agree from our discussions on this board, I'm guessing you and I would probably get along rather well in person. To defeat my own arguments I would offer that the United States should have taken the higher road based on its society of laws and not broken it's treaties. History is ripe with atrocities and land grabs, the Native American populations of the Great Plains not being above human nature nor is America with its "laws".
                Some good stuff there.

                Only comments I have on what you posted and the sources is that we (American Indians) have never claimed that the decimation of the indigenous culture was a result of smallpox laced blankets. our numbers were decimated to a great degree, especially in the East and West coasts as a result of contact. However there were at least two documented cases of whites intentionally sending smallpox laced blankets to Indian tribes.

                The one other thing I would take issue with is in the articles about the wounded knee massacre and that "In response to the single shot, a medicine man named Yellow Bird threw a handful of dirt into the air — an important symbol to his fellow members of the Ghost Dance cult, who believed that their rituals would bring dead warriors and dead buffalo back to life and rid the world of all white men. " Wovoka, who brought the Ghost Dance to the plains tribes taught that the dance would bring back the dead relatives and that the white man would be decimated by floods and other natural disasters. At least that is my understanding.
                Also Big Foot and the Miniconjou (which incidentally is my band) were not "fleeing from the authorities who wanted to restrict them to a reservation" as the article states. In fact the band had been on the Standing Rock Reservation (or Agency) with Sitting Bull when the "Wanage Wachipi (Ghost Dancing) started and left to get to the Red Crow Agency (Pine Ridge Reservation) to avoid the conflict which was coming to Standing Rock.

                I can see that you have a real interest and I sense respect for the history of those times and for indigenous cultures. I will once again recommend "Moon of the Popping Trees" for an accurate account of "The Sioux Wars" as well as "1491" for a snapshot into what American and Indigenous culture was like prior to contact and how that contact affected the native people.

                As for your resentment in an earlier post about having to pay the Sioux for their land. It was the government that broke the agreement. Blame them, not the Indians.

                And yes, there is no reason why we couldn't be friends. I have quite a few people with whom I disagree. It makes for great conversation as well as knowledge. The important thing is that people respect each other and their views, and especially their right to have and to express those views. As long as the issues that are debated and not the personalities, then it benefits everyone.

                I have one long time friend who is so conservative he can only walk in right circles. We have some lively conversations but we share a friendship that goes back over 30 years.

                Hawk
                Last edited by redhawk; 06-16-2011, 05:15 PM.
                "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                Comment


                • #38
                  All that behavioral stuff mentioned above was observed over 100 years by some obscure steamboat pilot from Missouri and published in some obscure magazine. He was probably not read by many people, if any - outside the mid-west.

                  Something about the French, the Comanche and which was more civilized.

                  Can't remember his name, the magazine or the article.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by dockless View Post
                    All that behavioral stuff mentioned above was observed over 100 years by some obscure steamboat pilot from Missouri and published in some obscure magazine. He was probably not read by many people, if any - outside the mid-west.

                    Something about the French, the Comanche and which was more civilized.

                    Can't remember his name, the magazine or the article.
                    Which "behavioral stuff" are you referring to?
                    "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                    Comment


                    • #41
                      Originally posted by dockless View Post
                      Found it!

                      Not at all as I remember from reading it 50 years ago, but still a good read.

                      http://books.google.com/books?id=RHo...epage&q&f=true
                      Obscure author?

                      I'm sure that was tongue and cheek.

                      reading his observations about the french, it's obvious that he wasn't impressed. In fact he may have been prejudiced as most Americans were back in that time. After all The french and the English, which of course included the white immigrants who had settled in America, had fought a war. Even later the prejudice existed because Lafayette and the French never really got the credit deserved for defeating the British in the Revolutionary war. In fact had they not intervened America would have continued to be a British Colony.

                      What stands out to me is Twain's opinions about the French's ability to "massacre" and how expert they were, "Even more so then the Comanche". There was much contact with the French by most North American tribes. They traded with the French quite freely and the french often married and lived with the Indian Nations. Nowhere is they any historic account of a "massacre" by the French of Indians nor the English immigrants on the North American Continent. However, there are several accounts of massacres by the English as well as the immigrant settlers.

                      Our only issue with the French was with the Jesuits who tried to "convert" many of the tribes to Catholicism. As is all to often the case with religious zealots, they sometimes used brutal methods to "save" us.

                      So i guess it's all in the eye of beholder.

                      As far as the story goes (about the Indian way compared to the whites). That it is a native joke about the white folks.

                      Hawk
                      "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                      Comment


                      • #42
                        The curator of a Western art museum commissioned a local artist to paint a mural-sized painting of Custer's Last Thought. The artist was told to make it highly symbolic of Custer's mindset during the debacle at the Little Big Horn.

                        Deep in thought, the artist went to his studio. After many false starts, he proceeded to paint an enormous oil painting. Finally, after many months of work, the painting was unveiled for the curator.

                        In the foreground there was a beautiful field with a single dairy cow. Around the cow's head was a halo. In the background, the hills and meadows were covered with naked Indians in various sexual positions.

                        The curator, both disgusted and baffled by what he saw, turned in rage and asked the artist, 'What the hell has this got to do with Custer's Last Thought?'

                        The artist replied, 'Custer's last thought: Holy Cow! Where did all these f@#$ing Indians come from?'

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                        • #43
                          Now THAT was GRRRRRReat!

                          Ed

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                          • #44
                            Haha!

                            When I went to little bighorn there was a tombstone marker by a fence a little ways away from Custer's hilltop. A little kid said, wow if that guy would've made it over the fence he probably would've gotten away!

                            I remember that to this day.
                            A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they never shall sit in

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