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Old 10-10-2014, 08:43 AM   #61
Ishmael8
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I find it silly that some people think they are doing the human race a favor by killing an animal like a bear. I don't know, maybe its a macho thing. I don't hunt to serve a public need to rid the world of those "big bad animals" I hunt to be in the out doors and sometimes get a bit of meat for the table.
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:09 AM   #62
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WEST MILFORD - The 22-year-old that was killed by a black bear last month was warned about the presence of the animal minutes prior to his death, according to an Oct. 8 press release from the West Milford Police Department

Darsh Patel was hiking with four friends in West Milford's Apshawa Preserve on Sept. 22 when he was apparently killed by a 302-pound male black bear. According to the Oct. 8 release from Police Chief Timothy Storbeck, the five men from Edison were urged not to proceed due to the presence of a bear by two hikers, a woman from Boston and a man from Bound Brook, just prior to encountering the animal suspected of taking Patel's life.

That pair told police that the black bear was following them for approximately 10 minutes at a distance of 30 to 40 feet before they met the group of five. They said they then warned the group about the bear. Nevertheless, the group continued on the path.
See more at: http://www.northjersey.com/news/poli....tghHimhS.dpuf
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Old 10-10-2014, 03:58 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by cityboy View Post
With all due respect Redhawk I'll defer to what the experts on the scene observed and concluded. The bear was put down for a reason.

I find it interesting that you emphasize a bears natural instinct to chase prey and yet ignore its natural instinct to stalk/hunt prey by inferring that the bear could have been simply "curious".

Three questions:

1. Under what circumstance would you conclude the fault lies with the wild animal?

2. How would you have responded in this instance WITHOUT bear spray or weapon? I'm particularly interested in what you would have done when clapping/yelling/arm waving failed to discourage the bear.

3. If you were in the search party would you have let this bear go?

I'm heading out the door to the Adirondacks to hunt bear. I'll answer any questions you have when I get back. Hopefully with a dead bear.
I'll answer your questiions but first point out that it is not a bears first natural instinct to "stalk/hunt" prey. Bears are omnivores, most of their diet consists of fruits, berries and grubs. Being scavengers they will if the opportunity presents itself take live prey such as young or weak livestock.

As for your questions.
1. When there is positive proof that the animal was acting in a predatory way. Also what people seem to fail to consider is that in most cases, we are in THEIR Territory. I have heard many people claim that they would not fail to shoot an intruder. Does a bear have to play by different rules?

2. The first point is, I would not have been without bear spray. But what I would have done would have been to slowly back away from the bear, at an angle and avoid direct eye contact talking to the bear in a low, even tone and waving my arms slowly. Neither facing the bear directly nor turning my back upon it. My first objective is to try to make the bear aware that i am not a threat. I would also have my bear spray out of it's holster and the safety clip removed, just to be prepared. Assuming we are talking about the black bear I would also be looking for a long, large stick on the ground in the event it did decide to charge. In the event it became aggressive towards me I would grab whatever weapon was available and fight it off if it charged. Most black bears will break it off.

3. If the bear did not show predatory behavior, seemed healthy and had not been the cause of a problem before, my sentiments would be to let it go. Most of the time it is human behavior that leads to the problem not the bears.



One thing I know for sure to be a fact. Bears don't lie, humans do.
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Last edited by redhawk; 10-14-2014 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 10-11-2014, 10:23 AM   #64
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The Police investigation is nearly completed. The one remaining task is the completion of the autopsy on the hiker to determine if his fatal injuries are consistent with a bear attack. This is a forgone conclusion since the bear was found guarding the body and had blood on his teeth and claws.

The facts are in and the debate is over. The black bear was a predatory animal. End of story.

Since some here seem to have a hard time understanding this here he are the facts and Expert opinion that led me to my correct conclusion. My source of the case specific facts was taken from various newspaper articles that have been linked to in this thread. My EXPERT source is taken from Dr. Stephen Herrero*, professor emeritus at the University of Calgary and author of the classic*Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance. I've boldfaced his advice.

Fact:
“Darsh Patel was hiking with four friends in West Milford's Apshawa Preserve on Sept. 22 when he was apparently killed by a 302-pound male black bear”
Expert:
“Most fatal attacks by North American black bears during the past century were conducted by lone, male animals”

Fact:
“That pair told police that the black bear was following them for approximately 10 minutes at a distance of 30 to 40 feet before they met the group of five.”

“As the bear continued to approach, the group began walking in the opposite direction in an effort to create distance. However, the bear continued to close the gap, spurring the group to pick up their pace.”


Expert:
“Potentially predatory approaches are typically silent, and may include stalking or other following, followed by a fast rush leading to contact”

Fact:
“Ultimately, the five ran for several minutes before becoming separated”

Expert:
"With training, people can learn to recognize the behavior of a bear that is considering them as prey and deter an attack by taking aggressive action such as fighting back."
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Old 10-11-2014, 02:37 PM   #65
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Examining an incident with a preferred outcome already in mind leads to the type of analysis you see above.

Truth is, this very well may have been the rarest of rare bears. A true predatory lone male who stalked a group of people, attacking and killing one of them. I say rarest of rare, because as rare as predatory bear attacks are, predatory bear attacks against a group of people are even rarer.

It is possible though. Some of the facts do support that conclusion.

However, we will never know for sure in this case because the key fact, the actual attack, took place AFTER the victims ran. It is well known that running from a bear can induce an aggressive chase response. In other words, a bear that had no intention of attacking, can be provoked into an attack when someone runs away from it. This is why you are told not to do it.

So, the other possible conclusion given the facts as presented?

You had a curious or hungry bear who may have learned to associate people with food and had therefore been following a couple of hikers. When the party ran, the bear's chase response kicked in and things ended tragically.

Two perfectly plausible conclusions given the facts of the case and what we know about bear behavior. The only way anyone could, at this point, say that we know with certainty that it was one or the other is if they were more interested in propping up their preferred outcome, if they have an ax to grind, or if they are trying to rile people up on an internet forum.

Last edited by Holdstrong; 10-11-2014 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 10-11-2014, 03:23 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cityboy View Post
The Police investigation is nearly completed. The one remaining task is the completion of the autopsy on the hiker to determine if his fatal injuries are consistent with a bear attack. This is a forgone conclusion since the bear was found guarding the body and had blood on his teeth and claws.

The facts are in and the debate is over. The black bear was a predatory animal. End of story.

Since some here seem to have a hard time understanding this here he are the facts and Expert opinion that led me to my correct conclusion. My source of the case specific facts was taken from various newspaper articles that have been linked to in this thread. My EXPERT source is taken from Dr. Stephen Herrero*, professor emeritus at the University of Calgary and author of the classic*Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance. I've boldfaced his advice.

Fact:
“Darsh Patel was hiking with four friends in West Milford's Apshawa Preserve on Sept. 22 when he was apparently killed by a 302-pound male black bear”
Expert:
“Most fatal attacks by North American black bears during the past century were conducted by lone, male animals”

Fact:
“That pair told police that the black bear was following them for approximately 10 minutes at a distance of 30 to 40 feet before they met the group of five.”

“As the bear continued to approach, the group began walking in the opposite direction in an effort to create distance. However, the bear continued to close the gap, spurring the group to pick up their pace.”


Expert:
“Potentially predatory approaches are typically silent, and may include stalking or other following, followed by a fast rush leading to contact”

Fact:
“Ultimately, the five ran for several minutes before becoming separated”

Expert:
"With training, people can learn to recognize the behavior of a bear that is considering them as prey and deter an attack by taking aggressive action such as fighting back."
Once again you have reached the conclusion you want which is not proven by the facts.

1. The bear attacked when they ran: Typical bear behavior.
2. Up to that point, what we have is a curious bear. Incidently one of the methods of bears who are habituated to humans and associate them with food is a "false charge". That didn't occur but might have had the hikers not run.
3. It would not be out of the question that the bear might have been following hoping for food scraps.

So the jury is out and they will deliberate for a long time because there are no facts to prove or disprove either theory.
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Last edited by redhawk; 10-14-2014 at 10:48 AM..
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Old 10-11-2014, 04:30 PM   #67
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Once again you have reached the conclusion you want which is not proven by the facts.

1. The bear attacked when they ran: Typical bear behavior.
2. Up to that point, what we have is a curious bear. Incidently one of the methods of bears who are habituated to humans and associate them with food is a "false charge". That didn't occur but might have had the hikers not run.
3. It would not be out of the question that the bear might have been following hoping for food scraps.

So the jury is out and they will deliberate for a long time because there are no facts to prove or disprove either theory.

Now why don't you try to bait me again by saying you're off to kill another bear?
"The bear attacked when they ran: Typical bear behavior."

It is ??? Please cite your source. If its "typical" why not more deaths? This is not the first time that a person ran from a bear and yet death is an extremely rare occurrence.

"what we have is a curious bear"

Next you'll tell me that the bear was concerned for their safety and was merely attempting to escort them out of the woods.

"bears who are habituated to humans and associate them with food is a "false charge". That didn't occur but might have had the hikers not run."

I get it, bears don't kill people, people kill people.

Redhawk I can accept your opinion however it appears that you have a problem accepting alternative views.
The difference between you and I is that I have shown my reasoning and backed it up with facts from a true expert. You simply make statements that do not fit the facts and of course without presenting any sources.

Let's agree to disagree but please don't try to pass yourself as a "bear expert". You're not an expert but you do have strong opinions which never seem to change regardless of the facts.

End of conversation.

Oh one final thing. Have you heard of criminal negligence? Letting a bear go after its killed is as negligent as you can get. If that bear would have attacked again I can just hear the public outcry and would not blame the victim for filing a lawsuit.
Thank god the people on the scene had common sense and put the bear down. By the way the police officer used a slug loaded 12ga shotgun.

Last edited by cityboy; 10-11-2014 at 04:40 PM..
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Old 10-13-2014, 07:31 PM   #68
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Which is worse getting mauled by a bear or getting shot by your hunting partner? Choice C: Both.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/man-sur...empt-1.2051031
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Old 10-14-2014, 01:06 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cityboy View Post
"The bear attacked when they ran: Typical bear behavior."

It is ??? Please cite your source. If its "typical" why not more deaths? This is not the first time that a person ran from a bear and yet death is an extremely rare occurrence.
If I quoted all the sources there would not be enough room on this forum. Pretty much every expert and by that I mean the biologists and others who study bear behavior are unanimous about that. I have constantly referred to Stephen Herrero's book, "Bear Attacks, Their causes and avoidance" as a reference, so you can start there.

As for the reason that death is a rare occurrence from running away being unusual? Not at all. Deaths from bear attacks are extremely rare in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cityboy View Post
"what we have is a curious bear"

Next you'll tell me that the bear was concerned for their safety and was merely attempting to escort them out of the woods.
That statement doesn't need a reply. Someone's life may be at risk someday and what they read on this forum may influence their behavior. Sarcasm has no place here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cityboy View Post
"bears who are habituated to humans and associate them with food is a "false charge". That didn't occur but might have had the hikers not run."

I get it, bears don't kill people, people kill people.
More people are killed by people then are killed by bears.
And yes. it people feed bears and bears become use to associating humans with food and then a human runs from a bear and gets caught and killed, the death was brought about by the humans who fed the bears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cityboy View Post
Redhawk I can accept your opinion however it appears that you have a problem accepting alternative views.
The difference between you and I is that I have shown my reasoning and backed it up with facts from a true expert. You simply make statements that do not fit the facts and of course without presenting any sources.
Well lets see. Go to any national parks out west and read their "bear aware" flyers and pamphlets and there you have it. In fact just google bear aware and you'll find more sources than you can handle. See here's the thing. What I have been posting is really common and widespread knowledge among people who spend a lot of time in the woods in bear country.
Quote:
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Let's agree to disagree but please don't try to pass yourself as a "bear expert". You're not an expert but you do have strong opinions which never seem to change regardless of the facts.
I never claimed to be an expert, but have pointed out that i have spent a lot lot time in bear country and have often been in proximity of bears, both grizzly and black.

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Originally Posted by cityboy View Post
End of conversation.
As usual, not correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by cityboy View Post
Oh one final thing. Have you heard of criminal negligence? Letting a bear go after its killed is as negligent as you can get. If that bear would have attacked again I can just hear the public outcry and would not blame the victim for filing a lawsuit.
Thank god the people on the scene had common sense and put the bear down. By the way the police officer used a slug loaded 12ga shotgun.
Well if you're right, then there are rangers and game officers who could be prosecuted or killed because every bear that kills is not necessarily put down.
You almost seem to brag about the fact that the officer used a 12 gauge with a 12 gauge slug. On the one hand if you're trying to make a point (again) that a gun is better than spray, in this case the officer wasn't facing a charging bear with little time to react.
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Old 10-14-2014, 07:24 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
Which is worse getting mauled by a bear or getting shot by your hunting partner? Choice C: Both.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/man-sur...empt-1.2051031
I saw this yesterday and figured it would show up here...or on the 'do you carry a gun in the woods' threads!
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:58 AM   #71
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Don't really care about the CB/RH debate as one is interested only in being right and the other can't just ignore it.

And I have not met anyone yet that sees into the mind of a bear. Heck I can't even see into the mind of someone who rear ends my car.

I find talking with bear hunters far more enjoyable. They don't care if they are right but rather like to share good bear stories.
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:43 AM   #72
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Don't really care about the CB/RH debate as one is interested only in being right and the other can't just ignore it.

And I have not met anyone yet that sees into the mind of a bear. Heck I can't even see into the mind of someone who rear ends my car.

I find talking with bear hunters far more enjoyable. They don't care if they are right but rather like to share good bear stories.
With all due respect. This is a public forum and is read by many people often people new to the outdoors and looking for advice. So when it comes to information which has to do with personal safety I think it is the responsibility of every experienced person to be sure that information is accurate. Who knows, a life or health may depend on it.
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:49 AM   #73
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Don't really care about the CB/RH debate as one is interested only in being right and the other can't just ignore it.
Funny thing is, I don't know which one is which... yet everyone else seems to want to burn one at the stake.

And who isn't on an internet forum that isn't only interested in being 'right'? I don't think I've ever read a post where someone said,

"Golly gee sir/ma'am, I see your point and I respect your opinion. I think I'll change my mind and let it all go."

It's like watching a car crash. It's part of life and some just can't look away.
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Old 10-15-2014, 08:52 AM   #74
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Seems to me that people often assume that once it is determined that a certain species of animal act in a certain way in a given set of circumstances, that they will ALL act in that way. Personally, I believe animals are just like people. They all have different demeanors/moods and stages of life which affect their reactions. I suspect that Timothy Treadwell, for those who are familiar with him, failed to recognize this.
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Old 10-15-2014, 04:51 PM   #75
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What you all think of the Rotterdam bear a couple of days ago?
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Old 10-15-2014, 04:55 PM   #76
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2014 on ADK Forum. The year of the bear.
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Old 10-15-2014, 04:59 PM   #77
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2014 on ADK Forum. The year of the bear.
And the season's bearly started!
Couldn't resist.
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Old 10-15-2014, 05:10 PM   #78
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Especially about the right to shoot Yogi.
I'd shoot Yogi if he stole my pic-a-nic basket.
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Old 10-15-2014, 06:32 PM   #79
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It's easy to see into the minds of other people. I bet the guy who rear ended you is thinking "why did this tool slam on his brakes?"
duh. A red light. Duh.

I have to look up that Rotterdam bear. Its funny how some posters stereotype. I bet those have never met more than a handful bear hunters and voila the opinion.

That does not look like one aggressive bear. Such a sad face

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...ec_office.html

Not discounting the story nor the actions but a better picture might remove any doubt
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:17 AM   #80
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What you all think of the Rotterdam bear a couple of days ago?
Crazy!

TU Story Here (page may not appear)

News10
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