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Old 05-09-2005, 12:44 PM   #1
Backpacker
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Question Windmills in the ADK

I recently got the May/June Adirondack Explorer and I read the article on the windmills that Barton Mines wants to build. I live near the 7 windmills built in Madison NY. True these windmills can be seen for miles but it’s not that bad. These mills are 200 plus feet tall with 110-foot blades, they need a wind speed of 3 to 24 MPH. Above 24 mph these mills will shut down. During the construction of these mills the road had to be reworked and widened out to get the turbines up to the site. I’ve been on the road to Barton Mines and this road is way to narrow and weak to support the trucks needed to haul the turbines, (not to mention winding). In the article the Barton mills will be 400 feet tall this would make the turbines bigger and heavier than the Madison mills. Also the sections would be longer. With the amount of peaks I’ve been on a 24 mph wind is near normal, so the question is how fast of a wind speed would the Barton mills handle? Then how many days a year would the mills be able to run? Next who would benefit from the new power? The mills in Madison only run when they have orders for power and the wind to run them. If you want to buy power from the mills in Madison it would cost more per kw hour than what you’re now paying.
Just some of my thoughts on wind power.
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Old 05-09-2005, 01:30 PM   #2
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Would these go on Pete Gay Mt. above the mines?
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Old 05-09-2005, 01:46 PM   #3
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RIK
the artical only mentions a 1,700 acre parcel on a ridge. It doesn't give a mountian name.
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Old 05-09-2005, 01:49 PM   #4
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Any mention of how far along in the process they are?
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Old 05-09-2005, 02:12 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik
Would these go on Pete Gay Mt. above the mines?
Yes, some of the proposed turbines would be on Pete Gay.

They are very early in the process.
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Old 05-09-2005, 02:55 PM   #6
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A leading Adirondack advocacy organization has its view on this project posted at
http://www.protectadks.org/nr_2005_04_18.html
http://www.protectadks.org/ltr_2005_05_02.html
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Old 05-09-2005, 03:00 PM   #7
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Wind Farm

The Proposed wind turbines for the Barton Mines in North River are in the very early stage. So far they have erected one test tower (which is scheduled to be taken down in October) and have asked the APA for a permit to put up a second test tower. If the Towers are erected they would be on the ridge lines of both Pete Gay and Gore Mountains. The total Tower height is 280 feet and a Blade length of 144 feet for a total height of @ 350 feet.
So far, all that has happened is one test tower and a lot of early PR. No one has submitted a plan to the APA, which is the first step in the long approval process.
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Old 05-09-2005, 04:34 PM   #8
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Thanks Tom and everyone.
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Old 05-09-2005, 04:36 PM   #9
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The mills will be even taller than Tom indicated. 279 ft. from the ground to the pivot point of the blade with the blade having a radius of 144ft making the total height 423ft. Rough equivalent of a 40 story building. The application for the second meteorological tower (167ft on the summit of Pete Gay) was not approved by the APA on a close vote and therefore was ordered to a public hearing. I understand that the project sponsor has requested a postponement of the hearing.
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Old 05-09-2005, 04:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Backpacker
...The mills in Madison only run when they have orders for power and the wind to run them...
It's sort of interesting that the "green" power source is only used as extra capacity when the fossil fuel plants can't supply the demand.

Why would it not be better to have the "green" sources, ie. wind turbines and hydro, running at 100% and have the polluters filling in the unmet demand???


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Old 05-09-2005, 05:07 PM   #11
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It would be great to reverse the usage. Your statement that wind power is used as extra capacity when fossil fuel plants cannot supply the demand is a function of economics. Electricity is sold as a commodity in NY. Wind power can be sold at any time whether the fossil plants are running near capacity or not. This market is a real "bid-asked" commodity market. Of course, when fossil plants are at capacity, the price of the commodity is bid up and wind power becomes competitive.
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Old 05-09-2005, 08:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ordin Aryguy
It's sort of interesting that the "green" power source is only used as extra capacity when the fossil fuel plants can't supply the demand.

Why would it not be better to have the "green" sources, ie. wind turbines and hydro, running at 100% and have the polluters filling in the unmet demand???


Ordin
Are you nuts? Then how would the politicians have any money to campaign with if the polluters weren't bribing them for favorable legislation..

Democracy as we have come to know it would turn into anarchy....
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Old 05-09-2005, 09:14 PM   #13
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I'm all for wind power. The less fossil fuels we use the better. In my mind the benefits to the environment far out weigh the visual impact it may have. Anyway whats more beautiful than watching electricity being made from nothing more than the uneven heating of the earth?
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Old 05-09-2005, 09:52 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by redhawk
...Are you nuts?...
Sorry 'Hawk, you're once again right. Temporary loss of sanity on this end. In the future I'll try not to apply logic and fact to anything again remotely connected to Gubbment Regulaters.

Bribes and corruption DO, in fact, make the world go 'round... What the heck was I thinking?


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Old 05-11-2005, 03:19 PM   #15
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Interesting. A high peak cannister is "non conforming" but a windmill ..........
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Old 05-11-2005, 04:02 PM   #16
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REGARDING: "Interesting. A high peak cannister is "non conforming" but a windmill .........."

Just to shed some light on the cannisters vs. windmills and make some legal disctions...

The Adirondacks is carved up into different classifications among state land. Wilderness Areas are the most protected and thus must have the least human intrusion including cannisters, firetowers, picnic tables, etc. On the other end of the spectrum is Intensive areas for instance: state campgrounds, DEC headquarters, the Northway. The park also has private lands. The Adirondack Park Agency governs both state and private lands.

The windmills are not being proposed to be built on state land so regulations regarding "wilderness areas" would not apply and the DEC does not have jurisdiction as they do with cannisters in the High Peaks Wilderness Area.

But your point about the windmills going up on private land so close to the Siamese Ponds Wilderness Area is a point well taken and one worthy of digestion as this thread is proving to be the case.

I personally think that the view from Peaked Mt is one of the best in the southern ADKs and am undecided about whether windmills sillhouetted in the sun will improve or lessen the view. Right now I'd rather the ridge was undisturbed.
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Old 06-12-2005, 10:03 PM   #17
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I'm a little confused here. The link says that the view will be impacted by 10 towers which will produce a total of 25 MW of power.

OK - but it's Sunday night right now, and going to www.nyiso.com, I see that the total load for New York is 24,285 MW. So these towers will reduce the load by 0.1 percent - if they're running. (Sunday night isn't a peak demand time.) If they're to be used for "peak shaving" (operating when 'fossil plants are fully loaded') they wouldn't be.

www.nyiso.com also indicates that the load in the North Country is something like 300 MW.

I support wind power, including the talk of a wind farm off Cape Cod (which would apparently ruin Ted Kennedy's view), but I don't think the Adirondacks are the place for them. I'd rather see the money put into buying a few thousand flourescent light bulbs for people, so they can reduce the load by 25 MW.

Look at it this way, would you be willing to accept ONE smokestack from a clean burning gas turbine? That could be at the bottom of the hill...

I say build the wind farms further south, closer to the load, so there's less transmission loss.
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Old 06-12-2005, 10:58 PM   #18
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Cornell University recently deep sixed a windfarm proposal for just outside of Ithaca. The only good thing to come out of the proposed wind farm was an indepth study was begun on the impact of migrating birds through the formerly proposed area. Neo-tropical birds migrate throughout the night, not during the day, and existing windfarms that are located in migration routes have had quite a negative impact on migrating neotropicals, hawks and bats.

The concrete footprint for a single windmill is HUGE!
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Old 06-13-2005, 06:00 PM   #19
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RiseAboveHiker is correct “The park also has private lands. The Adirondack Park Agency governs both state and private lands.”
The APA has the finial say on this issue, when and if a proposal is ever submitted.

The following is from the APA’s Policy on New Telecommunications Towers and Other Tall Structures in the Adirondack Park

This is for structures that are over 40’ in height:
· "The project will not have an undue adverse impact upon the natural, scenic, aesthetic, ecological, wildlife, historic, recreational or open space resources of the park or upon the ability of the public to provide supporting facilities and services made necessary by the project, taking into account the commercial, industrial, residential, recreational or other benefits that might be derived from the project. In making this determination, . . . the agency shall consider those factors contained in the development considerations of the plan which are pertinent to the project under review."

A "substantially invisible" communication facility and its appurtenant support facilities and access road(s) will not be readily apparent as to size, composition, or color and the structure will blend with the background vegetation, other structures or other landscape features as seen from all significant potential public viewing points and as documented by simulation and other visual analysis methods. Potential public viewing points include public roads, navigable waters and other public places.


You have to wonder how a tower the height of a 40 story building and with a turbine generator the size of a city bus could possibly obtain a status of substantially invisibility.

None the less, remember that no plan or papers have been filed with the APA, DEC or any other state agency. So, speculation is, to say the least, premature.

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Old 06-13-2005, 06:26 PM   #20
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I am very much for the use of alternative energy sources, but remain unconvinced that the windmill's usefulness as such an alternative outweighs the visual pollution created by huge propellers on wind farms.

I am reluctant to jump at any alternative to fossil fuels merely because it is labeled as such.
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