Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > The Adirondack Forum > Hunting and Fishing in the Adirondacks
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-14-2018, 11:25 AM   #41
mgc
Member
 
mgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckladd View Post
There's talk of adding this to the state budget (again):
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2017/S1386
As with all things Funke (think antler restrictions and alignment with QDMA money) this is funky.
I see several things that are illogical or not adequately fleshed out.
First, it removes the Cbow instruction from the basic HE course but it does not specifically add it to the Bowhunter Education class where (presuming the implement is not treated as a bow) it should be taught.
Second, flying in the face of the established data that most hunting related incidents are due to climbing or exiting tree stands (6 NYS fatalities last year vs. 1 firearm related) it removes the ground hunting restriction for youth hunters. That is supinely ignorant:
Section 12 - amends ECL 11-0929 removes the provision that the minor
hunter and his or her chaperone remain at ground level while hunting.
Finally, this does not address the status for Bowhunting certification for current Cbow users who have used the self-certification and Muzzleloading privilege...
It is implied that to use the Cbow that Bowhunter Ed is required (that course is required to purchase the Bowhunting privilege) but it does not address what happens to the current Cbow users. It looks like there will a run on Bowhunter classes, already in short supply.
No one should hold their breath for this shart...
mgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 01:37 PM   #42
Bounder45
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc View Post
As with all things Funke (think antler restrictions and alignment with QDMA money) this is funky.
How much money do you think QDMA has to throw around with politicians? Moreover, do you have proof that QDMA is giving Funke lots of money to influence his decisions, or are you happy to let the subtle implication remain as is? I understand AR's aren't popular; I also know that a lot of NY deer hunters aren't very happy with the lack of big mature bucks in this state. You can't have your cake and eat it too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc View Post
First, it removes the Cbow instruction from the basic HE course but it does not specifically add it to the Bowhunter Education class where (presuming the implement is not treated as a bow) it should be taught.
Second, flying in the face of the established data that most hunting related incidents are due to climbing or exiting tree stands (6 NYS fatalities last year vs. 1 firearm related) it removes the ground hunting restriction for youth hunters. That is supinely ignorant:
Section 12 - amends ECL 11-0929 removes the provision that the minor
hunter and his or her chaperone remain at ground level while hunting.
Finally, this does not address the status for Bowhunting certification for current Cbow users who have used the self-certification and Muzzleloading privilege...
It is implied that to use the Cbow that Bowhunter Ed is required (that course is required to purchase the Bowhunting privilege) but it does not address what happens to the current Cbow users. It looks like there will a run on Bowhunter classes, already in short supply.
No one should hold their breath for this shart...
When was cross bow education ever part of the basic Hunter Education course? I don't recall any coverage of that subject; maybe a few minutes of verbal discussion but certainly no hands on.

Also, I have absolutely no problem with youth hunters going up into tree stands, so long as the proper safety precautions are taken. The fact is, tree stand hunting is the most effective way to take deer (especially with a bow) in much of NY due to the nature of the terrain and vegetation. I'd rather have a youth hunter learn how to hunt from a tree stand safely rather than have him/her get hurt trying to figure it out alone.
Bounder45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 02:50 PM   #43
Tug Hill
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 162
Nothing like lawmakers in Albany continually over regulating us.

The QDMA does not give money to any politician. And as far as NY is concerned, the QDMA realized long ago that DEC deer management in NY is a joke.

They put their effort in educating NY hunters into voluntarily implementing The QDM concept. Some hunters will get it, some will never get it.
Tug Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 03:09 PM   #44
Buckladd
Member
 
Buckladd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hogtown
Posts: 903
QDMA lends their resources to DEC biologists, just as TU, DU, Pheasants Forever and others have for years. I'm sure that earns them some ears, but that's about it, that I'm aware of.

As for the Crossbow inclusion in the budget, if it's not passed by April 1 and stuff starts coming out, this will likely be one of the first items tossed. Just as it was last year along with the lower big game hunting age bill.

Overall, I'm typically not a fan of putting legislation in the budget, but I would like to see a crossbow bill get passed.
__________________
Life's short, hunt hard!
Buckladd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 04:52 PM   #45
Tug Hill
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 162
[QUOTE=Buckladd;266441]QDMA lends their resources to DEC biologists, just as TU, DU, Pheasants Forever and others have for years. I'm sure that earns them some ears, but that's about it, that I'm aware of.


That may be, but the QDMAís expertise falls on deaf ears at the DEC.


I have discussed this with Kip Adams of the QDMA, he and others at the QDMA tell me, that when their top deer biologists from around the country meet. Deer management in NY is the standing joke.
Tug Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 06:41 PM   #46
Buckladd
Member
 
Buckladd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hogtown
Posts: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tug Hill View Post

I have discussed this with Kip Adams of the QDMA, he and others at the QDMA tell me, that when their top deer biologists from around the country meet. Deer management in NY is the standing joke.
I'd be curious to hear what Kip would have in mind for all of NY. He endorsed the latest management plan. Do you think he did so reluctantly?
__________________
Life's short, hunt hard!
Buckladd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2018, 02:20 PM   #47
mgc
Member
 
mgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 302
[QUOTE=Tug Hill;266442]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckladd View Post

That may be, but the QDMAís expertise falls on deaf ears at the DEC.
We should be thankful for that.
Not everyone (few) subscribe to the hype.
Of the students that I teach, none of them put harvesting a deer with big horns as their first priority. Harvesting a deer to put in the freezer comes after simply being successful.
We still laugh about the audacity of a local QDMA fanatic who belittled a youth hunter for her first harvest, a 6 point buck, on her families land... rather than congratulate her for her good fortune (a 14 year old) he berated her...he and his "group" have the adjoining acreage locked up for "management"... the deer they don't/won't take end up destroying nearby crops and end up being taken on nuisance permits.
The DEC has a broader perspective of the overall management needs of the regions because they take more than horns into consideration...
Earlier in this post someone suggested crossbows could help to inspire more youth participation....baloney...success does that.
mgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2018, 02:27 PM   #48
Bounder45
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc View Post
We should be thankful for that.
Not everyone (few) subscribe to the hype.
Of the students that I teach, none of them put harvesting a deer with big horns as their first priority. Harvesting a deer to put in the freezer comes after simply being successful.
We still laugh about the audacity of a local QDMA fanatic who belittled a youth hunter for her first harvest, a 6 point buck, on her families land... rather than congratulate her for her good fortune (a 14 year old) he berated her...he and his "group" have the adjoining acreage locked up for "management"... the deer they don't/won't take end up destroying nearby crops and end up being taken on nuisance permits.
The DEC has a broader perspective of the overall management needs of the regions because they take more than horns into consideration...
I think there is a whole lot more to QDMA's focus than simply harvesting deer with big antlers.

I also don't understand why one bad experience with one individual will form a person's outlook on an entire group.

I'm not a member of QDMA, but I would like to see better management of NY's deer, at least those in western NY. I could care less about antler size; bigger bucks = more meat. And that objective is not mutually exclusive with controlling the population (which requires hunting the does).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc View Post
Earlier in this post someone suggested crossbows could help to inspire more youth participation....baloney...success does that.
I agree that crossbows will likely have a minimal effect on hunter recruitment, but I have no problem with their use being allowed. Lack of access and opportunity are the main inhibitors for new people getting into the sport. Arbitrary tree stand restrictions for youth hunters is one such inhibitor, especially considering it is one of the main methods of hunting in NY.

Last edited by Bounder45; 03-15-2018 at 03:44 PM..
Bounder45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2018, 04:51 PM   #49
Buckladd
Member
 
Buckladd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hogtown
Posts: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounder45 View Post
IThat may be, but the QDMAís expertise falls on deaf ears at the DEC.
Actually, Tug wrote that, not me.
__________________
Life's short, hunt hard!
Buckladd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2018, 07:58 PM   #50
mgc
Member
 
mgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 302
I'm not a big fan of USA Today but this is a good article:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...ies/870815001/

Folks from Western NY will probably respect the source of this article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4133424/

These are the DEC's records for 2017. Note that they do not report on all incidents..only the ones they investigated:
https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/tsri17.pdf

Hunting from a stand certainly is easier and improves the hunters odds. There is no question about that. But, the likelihood of a tree stand incident tilts the risk/benefit way beyond justification for youth hunters...maybe even for adults. Note the age of the hunters who died in falls from stands last year.
I hunt from stands, I have several climbers, I hunted from a stand this year that I fell from 2 years ago...I've recovered and learned to walk again...even if you are careful you can fall..... 12 and 13 year old's are better off on the ground.
By the way, we are beating this thread up pretty hard and it's tilted pretty hard towards deer..take those youths out in a blind and let them experience big old honkers locked up and dropping in...no stands required and very little patience required......that'll get them hunting.

Last edited by mgc; 03-15-2018 at 08:01 PM.. Reason: wrong link attached
mgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2018, 09:54 PM   #51
Bounder45
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 362
MGC, I really don't care what the stats are regarding tree stand falls. It's an individual safety issue and it's not something the government should have a heavy hand in regulating.

Tree stand hunting is the main method of hunting in many parts of NY. I would rather the youth learn how to hunt from a tree stand properly and safely under the guidance of an experienced hunter rather than use trial and error on their own. The young hunters would certainly benefit from learning the proper way to hunt from a tree stand early in life rather than risk making a serious mistake later on in life.

There are many areas in western NY where hunting, especially bow hunting, is just not feasible without a stand.
Bounder45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 08:28 AM   #52
mgc
Member
 
mgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounder45 View Post
MGC, I really don't care what the stats are regarding tree stand falls. I would rather the youth learn how to hunt from a tree stand properly and safely under the guidance of an experienced hunter. The young hunters would certainly benefit from learning the proper way to hunt from a tree stand early in life rather than risk making a serious mistake later on in life.
Here is some information to help you to become familiar with what is taught in NYS Hunter Education and Bowhunting classes.
Each course covers (in detail) each of the stand types and how to use them safely.
Safe stand placement/installation and (safe) tree selection is explained.
The related safety equipment (harness, fall arrest system, linemans belt, relief strap etc.) is demonstrated and explained in considerable detail.
The use of a pull up line for firearms and bows is also highlighted.
In the Bowhunter course there is additional time spent on strategic placement of stands and the various hunting benefits of stands.

Both courses have a homework requirement... both manuals and related homework require an understanding of tree stands and tree stand safety as a pre-requisite to the instruction that is delivered during the class.

Youth hunters receive significant tree stand related safety training. That does not entirely remove the risk of tree stand incidents.
As an aside, I hunt in Western NY and take nearly as many deer from the ground as I do from tree stands. Properly prepared ground blinds and pit blinds are an effective cover for bowhunting...
I would rather see the hunting age raised than permit youth to use tree stands...........
mgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 09:26 AM   #53
Tug Hill
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 162
[QUOTE=mgc;266451]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;266442
We should be thankful for that.
Not everyone (few) subscribe to the hype.
Of the students that I teach, none of them put harvesting a deer with big horns as their first priority. Harvesting a deer to put in the freezer comes after simply being successful.
We still laugh about the audacity of a local QDMA fanatic who belittled a youth hunter for her first harvest, a 6 point buck, on her families land... rather than congratulate her for her good fortune (a 14 year old) he berated her...he and his "group" have the adjoining acreage locked up for "management"... the deer they don't/won't take end up destroying nearby crops and end up being taken on nuisance permits.
The DEC has a broader perspective of the overall management needs of the regions because they take more than horns into consideration...
Earlier in this post someone suggested crossbows could help to inspire more youth participation....baloney...success does that.
Your post clearly shows your ignorance of the QDM concept, which has always encouraged youth hunters. Like I stated in another post, “ some will get it , others will never get it .” You clearly are the latter, and I won’t waste my time trying to enlighten you.
Tug Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 10:12 AM   #54
Bounder45
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc View Post
I would rather see the hunting age raised than permit youth to use tree stands...........
And I would rather see that the government, and opinionated citizens, not be able to dictate who can and can't tree-stand hunt. There really is just no need for it.

If a hunter/mentor has already gained tree stand hunting experience from the archery course and from practical application, then it is perfectly logical to allow a youth hunter to use a tree stand under his/her guidance.

Tree stand falls are just one of many risks inherent to hunting. Youth hunters need to understand that it's not about avoiding risks, but rather it's about mitigating them.

Edit: Also, I can't speak for the archery course, but the basic hunter education course had minimal instruction on tree stand usage (nothing more than a brief verbal discussion). Let's be honest here: the hunter education courses are 'check in the boxes.' The material and testing is simple and basic, the practical application is very limited, and just about everyone passes. The hands-on experience that a youth hunter gets from working with a mentor far exceeds what is gained from a simple classroom course.

Last edited by Bounder45; 03-16-2018 at 11:56 AM..
Bounder45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 12:44 PM   #55
EagleCrag
Member
 
EagleCrag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gloversville, NY
Posts: 1,211
As a former Bowhunter Education Instructor I can vouch for what MGC said. When I taught the course (about 20 years ago) we would put up treestands during the course and spend much time discussing the "do's" and "don'ts" Not sure how the course content has changed since then.
EagleCrag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 01:54 PM   #56
Buckladd
Member
 
Buckladd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hogtown
Posts: 903
Lot’s of discussion here:

Ref - Tree Stands: Expect more tree stand safety and education from DEC, whether it’s in the regs guide or part of the hunter-ed curriculum, as it was when I took the course in 1988. Although I seldom stand hunt, they’re here to stay and all hunters should know the ins and outs.

Ref - QDMA: I hold nothing against the organization, I’m actually a member, but I’m not involved in a co-op or anything similar. Their annual reports are good, solid info that every deer hunter should read. I do think much of the general hunting public, at least those opposed to ARs, simply think that is all QDMA is about. Which is not the case. I have seen some distasteful behavior among a few co-ops, or individuals within them, but you can't judge the national organization by that.
__________________
Life's short, hunt hard!
Buckladd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 01:56 PM   #57
mgc
Member
 
mgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 302
[QUOTE=Tug Hill;266471]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc View Post

Your post clearly shows your ignorance of the QDM concept, which has always encouraged youth hunters. Like I stated in another post, ď some will get it , others will never get it .Ē You clearly are the latter, and I wonít waste my time trying to enlighten you.
Ignorant, no...in agreement...no. My personal experiences have not been favorable...so be it.
mgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 02:10 PM   #58
mgc
Member
 
mgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounder45 View Post
Tree stand falls are just one of many risks inherent to hunting.
Edit: Also, I can't speak for the archery course, but the basic hunter education course had minimal instruction on tree stand usage (nothing more than a brief verbal discussion). Let's be honest here: the hunter education courses are 'check in the boxes.' The material and testing is simple and basic, the practical application is very limited, and just about everyone passes. The hands-on experience that a youth hunter gets from working with a mentor far exceeds what is gained from a simple classroom course.
Properly managed, there are virtually no "inherent risks" in hunting other than tree stands. You are more likely to die from a lightning strike or an insect sting than from a gunshot wound while hunting... that was not always the case...hunter education has reduced shooting incidents by 80% since the 1960's. The increased focus on tree stand incidents will likely also reduce fatalities and injuries...

I always encourage folks that are not familiar with the content included in HE courses to attend one...even experienced hunters are surprised at how much is taught and how much they learn...
Here's a link to one of the tools we use in our classes...take a few minutes with some of the tree stand content...this is not our primary tool..it's a supplement.
Again, look at those fatality statistics.. experienced hunters are the ones who died last year. Experience is not an assurance of knowledge... it took me years to unlearn some of the stupid things I was told when I started hunting...
https://www.huntercourse.com/hetools/
mgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2018, 11:15 PM   #59
Bounder45
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 362
Basic Hunting Questions/your opinions

MGC, simply by going into the wilderness with a firearm you are assuming more risk than say someone who is just going for a nature stroll.

There is definitely more risk associated with hunting, tree stand usage being but one of many of those risks. I donít say any of that to discourage new hunters but rather to emphasize the individual responsibility that must be assumed.

Havenít taken the bow education course but I will soon. I saw minimal tree stand instruction in the basic hunter education course and I took that only a few years ago. The basic course was a joke; Iím not marginalizing the efforts of the instructors (I was fortunate to have a good one), but there were a lot of people who took the course. Practical application was limited, material was simple, testing was easy and Iím pretty sure everyone passed.

Iíve seen how the youth hunters get mentored. The hands on experience and personalized feedback they get is far superior to what I got in the course.

Tree stands can be dangerous. Let the mentors teach the youth hunters on how to effectively mitigate that danger. Forcing the youth to avoid that topic does them a disservice. And itís really not something that needs to be over regulated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by Bounder45; 03-17-2018 at 08:22 AM..
Bounder45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2018, 08:15 AM   #60
EagleCrag
Member
 
EagleCrag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Gloversville, NY
Posts: 1,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounder45 View Post
And I would rather see that the government, and opinionated citizens, not be able to dictate who can and can't tree-stand hunt. There really is just no need for it.
I couldn't agree with this more. There is inherent risk in everything we do and I get perturbed when the government thinks we need to pass a law every time an accident occurs. If I choose to hunt and/or utilize tree stands, that is my decision. If I do so I accept the risks associated with it. While I realize youths need good guidance and are properly mentored, if a parent or mentor turns out to be a terrible one, laws aren't going to change that.
EagleCrag is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.