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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mavs00 View Post
    It nice to know you were a big PITA malcontent back then too. In this world of constant change and evolution, it's comforting to know that some things never change.
    I've never considered myself as a malcontent. Just someone who helps others to practice the principles or our founding fathers.

    Originally posted by Mavs00 View Post
    As an aside, I was born in NL, at the Lawrence Mem. Hosp. that overlooks that bridge on the river thames
    Your a native New Londoner? That explains a lot......

    What's really scary is that we have something in common!!


    Seriously Tim, how long did you live in New London? Two of my children were born there and one in Backus hospital in Norwich. I was based out of the U.S. Sub base in Groton on two six month rotations. My wife and children lived in Groton and in Norwich while I was in SE Asia.

    Hawk
    "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

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    • #32
      I've had similar expereinces to Redhawk's minus the legal hassle.

      I think the cops have an obligation to check a car parked on the side of the road, solitary in a parking lot etc. They catch a lot of drunk drivers that way.

      When I've been sleeping in my car, I haven't gotten any trouble other than a few questions, "What are you doing here", "Have you been drinking", etc. I've even had a state trooper knock on my window when I was sleeping in a rest area on the thruway.
      -Rob

      There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot. - Steven Wright

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Judgeh View Post
        One can expect that kind of wise decision making from a Connecticut court.
        Not always. I believe I told you about my two Contempt of Court convictions when we were at the Ward Brook Lean-To?

        As for the New London POLICE, that's a different matter all together.

        About three years ago, an applicant for the force sued because even though he had an impeccable record and scored highest on the test, he was not hired.

        The chief of police testified that the reason he wasn't hired was because "he was too smart to be a cop."

        I'm not making this up, it was in the New London Day when it happened. Of course he meant that he was sure that the guy would not have stayed on the force because of his qualification, as soon as something more suited and better paying came along. That's not the way it came out however.

        It sure didn't do anything for the morale of the force. Imagine hearing that you're "dumb enough to be a cop".

        Do you remember that Bruce? Other end of the state I know, but stuff like that has a way of getting around.
        "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

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        • #34
          Mr. Redhawk- I was kinda thinking about once upon a time when I was walking to class in college and, way back when it was in vogue, getting passed by a young lady wearing sneakers and a baseball cap and nothing in between. Would she be "completely undressed" enough to be in violation of the reg? These are the great questions asked by law professors and bar examiners.

          While I don't do this kind of work, I love vague regulations and those "fine legal distinctions" that they give rise to.

          Now, if I could find three clients, each to raise one of those fine legal distinctions and get caught doing it...let me see...three clients...an hour driving to court,,,an hour waiting in court,,,an hour trying to convince the judge...an hour driving home....

          Even at an average hourly rate, it would just about buy two Hornbecks.

          Full employment for lawyers. It's a beautiful thing!

          As far as the parking lot incident..when I hear about similar situations I usually find that the "probable cause" was that it involved a multicolored VW Microbus.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Paradox6 View Post
            Mr. Redhawk- I was kinda thinking about once upon a time when I was walking to class in college and, way back when it was in vogue, getting passed by a young lady wearing sneakers and a baseball cap and nothing in between. Would she be "completely undressed" enough to be in violation of the reg?
            What color sneakers?

            I don't know but I wouldn't turn her in!!

            (BTW, there's no "Mister" in Redhawk)
            "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

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            • #36
              Didn't notice, but even after 30 years there is still a certain something about redheads in a Red Sox cap.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by redhawk View Post
                Seriously Tim, how long did you live in New London? Two of my children were born there and one in Backus hospital in Norwich. I was based out of the U.S. Sub base in Groton on two six month rotations. My wife and children lived in Groton and in Norwich while I was in SE Asia.
                My family lived in the Westerly RI/Pawcatuck area from 1961-71 when my dad worked for Electric Boat (he was a structural engineer for sub technology**). I was 5 when we left. I still have ties to the area and my sister (and her kids familes live in Westerly. My wife also has family in Stonington.

                File this in the small world file

                ** - Interesting Historical note - My dad actually was working on the USS Thresher in the days leading up to her loss
                "I can feel your anger. It gives you focus. It makes you stronger. " Supreme Chancellor

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mavs00 View Post
                  My family lived in the Westerly RI/Pawcatuck area from 1961-71 when my dad worked for Electric Boat (he was a structural engineer for sub technology**). I was 5 when we left. I still have ties to the area and my sister (and her kids familes live in Westerly. My wife also has family in Stonington.

                  File this in the small world file

                  ** - Interesting Historical note - My dad actually was working on the USS Thresher in the days leading up to her loss
                  There are a lot of Navy people who think that Harvey pushed the boat beyond where it should have gone. he had a rep for being pretty Gung-Ho.

                  Westerly is a nice Italian town and Stonington is Portuguese.

                  Are you familiar with the Yankee Fisherman restaurant in Groton Long Point? I was sous chef there for a couple of years.
                  "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Back to car camping at the loj--there is a sign that clearly states "no camping" for the parking lots. I am a frequent carcamper, and I stay out of those lots. They would never bother you, most of the employees are young and understand "dirtbagging" it, but why break the rules when south meadow is 5 minutes closer on the way in. With that being said, the bathrooms are open 24 hours a day, and see no use between midnight and 6 am. The heat is set to about 75F, and there is a vestibule outside of the mens room with lots of folding chairs. I've definitely thought about going in to "change my clothes" when I get up there late night in the winter, but I'm always afraid I will fall asleep and not wake up until 6am-ish...

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                    • #40
                      I think if you are physically in your car at a trailhead you are not camping you are sleeping in your car!

                      And I envy those who have large enough cars to be able to do that - I have attempted this a few times in the past when I have tried to get to the trailhead the night before a planned trip to save time...and what happens is I wake up every 15 or 20 minutes needing to turn over because my ass and leg is numb!!!

                      And it's always in the back of my mind that I could get one of those fatal blood clots or aneurisms or whatever from restricted blood flow!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Wldrns View Post
                        If it is not addressed by the DEC, then it is likely a variable of local town laws, enforceable by small town police and local judges. I'll check with 'Berg (DEC) next weekend.
                        I'm back from a weekend with Kris ('berg) at Ray Brook (Senior Forester, NYSDEC Region 5)... I asked this question and he immediately pointed to Part 190.0, paragraph b.2 which defines:
                        "2. Camp shall mean any form of temporary shelter, including but not limited to a tent, motor home travel trailer, mobile home, or the use of any vehicle for shelter or sleeping."

                        So "camping" does indeed include sleeping in any vehicle. Kris said the 150 foot rule applies here, which states you may not "camp" on state forest lands withing 150 feet of a road, etc. etc. I asked about truckers, for example, who regularly pull off the road to sleep. He said that the major roads truckers use fall under the DOT, which has a wide enough right-of-way including the road shoulder that they do not fall under the restriction as far as the DEC is concerned. However on most any town owned road, the DOT does not have the roadside easement/ownership off the shoulder of the road like they do on the major highways. The DEC enforcement arm can thus nab you at their descretion for illegal camping and give you a ticket to visit the local town justice.
                        "Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman

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                        • #42
                          I also note the "including but not limited to" clause.

                          However it does refer specifically to a temporary shelter of some sort, so I guess crashing on the ground and sleeping under stars would be ok?
                          "There's a whisper on the night-wind, there's a star agleam to guide us, And the Wild is calling, calling . . . let us go." -from "The Call of the Wild" by Robert Service

                          My trail journal: DuctTape's Journal

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Wldrns View Post
                            I'm back from a weekend with Kris ('berg) at Ray Brook (Senior Forester, NYSDEC Region 5)... I asked this question and he immediately pointed to Part 190.0, paragraph b.2 which defines:
                            "2. Camp shall mean any form of temporary shelter, including but not limited to a tent, motor home travel trailer, mobile home, or the use of any vehicle for shelter or sleeping."

                            I asked about truckers, for example, who regularly pull off the road to sleep. He said that the major roads truckers use fall under the DOT, which has a wide enough right-of-way including the road shoulder that they do not fall under the restriction as far as the DEC is concerned. However on most any town owned road, the DOT does not have the roadside easement/ownership off the shoulder of the road like they do on the major highways. The DEC enforcement arm can thus nab you at their descretion for illegal camping and give you a ticket to visit the local town justice.
                            So, hypothetically, if a trucker got a ticket for being pulled over on a highway, he would be charged with illegal camping? Not illegal parking?

                            In NY Law, camping is defined as sleeping in one's car? Is camping defined by statute, which I think it has to be if there are laws regulating it. Otherwise it's arbitrary, depending on individuals opinions.

                            Maybe JudgeH can offer his legal expertise about legal definition even though he is from a different state.

                            I suppose a legislator would be an even better source but then I'm looking for a straight answer.
                            "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by redhawk View Post
                              In NY Law, camping is defined as sleeping in one's car? Is camping defined by statute, which I think it has to be if there are laws regulating it. Otherwise it's arbitrary, depending on individuals opinions.
                              I posted above where camping is defined, as pointed out by a senior official of the DEC. It's in the NYS Dept of Environmental Conservation Rules and Regulations, Use of State Lands, Part 190. Statutory authority: Environmental Conservation Law, §§ 1-0101, 3-0301, 9-0105; Executive Law, § 816; L. 1970, ch. 140

                              Nothing arbitrary about the fact that it is covered by statute that I see. Of course like most legal rulings, it can be subject to variants in application by both the enforcement authority and the justice hearing the particulars.

                              Kris's concerns were not so much someone illegally sleeping in a vehicle as are the other consequences already discussed here, of improper trash and human waste accumulation.
                              "Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by redhawk View Post
                                So, hypothetically, if a trucker got a ticket for being pulled over on a highway, he would be charged with illegal camping? Not illegal parking?

                                In NY Law, camping is defined as sleeping in one's car? Is camping defined by statute, which I think it has to be if there are laws regulating it. Otherwise it's arbitrary, depending on individuals opinions.
                                maybe JudgeH can offer his legal expertise about legal definition even though he is from a different state.

                                I suppose a legislator would be an even better source but then I'm looking for a straight answer.
                                Hawk - The straight answer is Yes, but a degree of precision is needed.

                                The legislature enacts "statutes" that enable or empower state agencies to enact "regulations" to carry out its responsibilities.The regulations are generally limited to areas and activities within that agency's purview. There is a process the agencies have to follow to enact or amend regulations. The Section 190.0 being referred to is a "regulation" of the DEC.

                                Section 190.0 provides: "a. The provisions of this Part shall apply to all persons entering upon or using State lands which are subject to the provisions of article 9, article 45, or article 49 of the Environmental Conservation Law or defined as "unique areas", "environmentally sensitive lands" or "conservation easements" in this section.

                                b. Definitions. As used in this Chapter, the following words shall have the indicated meanings:

                                1. Bicycle shall mean a vehicle with two or more wheels, a steering handle, a saddle seat, or seats and pedals by which it is propelled.

                                2. Camp shall mean any form of temporary shelter, including but not limited to a tent, motor home travel trailer, mobile home, or the use of any vehicle for shelter or sleeping. ..."

                                The 150 foot rule referred to is in another reg in this section,

                                These definitions apply to the rules in that Chapter and apply to the lands described in the "applicability" section of the regulation, Section 190.0 (a). I don't have access at home to a research tool to tell you which lands are included, but I strongly suspect it covers most of the park. Has the "state" defined "camp" in that manner for all areas and all purposes, statewide? No, this is not that broad.

                                I think what Wldrns' source means is that on major highways under the purview of the DOT where there is a provision for parking and rest areas, and the DOT is supervising or regulating them, the DEC regs either do not apply or they are abstaining from enforcing them on those highways. On more local roads, where the road right of way is limited pretty much to the edge of the road, the regs apply and the DEC can enforce. Enforcement authority carries with it some degree of discretion; how an agency spends its resources or utilizes its people or assigns priorities for enforcement are judgment calls. They can end up being enforced arbitrarily but I would have to say that we seem to be pretty fortunate with most of the folks from the DEC. It seems that they look at the regs as tools to use to remedy real problems when they occur, rather than for the sake of enforcement alone.

                                When it comes to enforcing regs, once you get past the basic safety kinds of regs, and get into regs that tend to be more "quality of life" type regs, the age old legal principle appears to be "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

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