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Old 01-08-2013, 09:10 PM   #1
Blackhawk
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Professor suggests cougar reintroduction to Adirondacks

OSWEGO — A SUNY Oswego biology faculty member suggests that a forest preserve in the Adirondack Mountains can accommodate the reintroduction 150 to 350 cougars, challenging previous findings.

more to the report at - http://pressrepublican.com/new_today...to-Adirondacks
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:07 PM   #2
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Yes. It was in yesterdays Almanak too. I'm not going to repost my comments from that site to here right now though. Those of you who know me can read them over there if you are interested in what I had to say. If somehow something I said there becomes relevent to the discussion here feel free to use my quotes on the Almanak page in the discussion here if you wish.

http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/20...f-cougars.html
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:09 PM   #3
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According to some accounts the cougars are already here, albeit not in large numbers.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:32 PM   #4
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I think when it comes to any large predator whether its cougar, wolves etc. it may be best to let them come back on their own.
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:29 PM   #5
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I think when it comes to any large predator whether its cougar, wolves etc. it may be best to let them come back on their own.
While I agree that nature will, at some point, always return and regain what was originally its own. However, in this case it will be incredibly difficult for cougars and wolves to "come back on their own" while humans still exist.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:22 AM   #6
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While I agree that nature will, at some point, always return and regain what was originally its own. However, in this case it will be incredibly difficult for cougars and wolves to "come back on their own" while humans still exist.
You are so right. Can't understand why our government wants to waste so much money instead of protecting what we already have.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:52 AM   #7
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You are so right. Can't understand why our government wants to waste so much money instead of protecting what we already have.
Seems to me the government is trying to protect what we have, in spite of a large number of people who want the protections removed and call that a waste of money.

However, I do agree that I don't think it's a good idea to try to introduce cougars or wolves to the Adirondacks. Because of the time that it takes for a species to get established and the number of people who use the Adirondacks as well as the ignorant fear and hater many have against the predators, it wouldn't be good for the wolves.

A better plan would be to protect the species in some of the National parks in this country by banning humans from certain sections and seeing how the process of natural selection works in "managing the herds".
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:52 AM   #8
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A better plan would be to protect the species in some of the National parks in this country by banning humans from certain sections and seeing how the process of natural selection works in "managing the herds".
This is sage advice.

As Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry once said, "We have met the enemy and they are ours...".
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:34 AM   #9
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This is sage advice.

As Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry once said, "We have met the enemy and they are ours...".
And as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us"
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:06 PM   #10
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And as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us"
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:10 PM   #11
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Never more true than it is today, is it??
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:56 AM   #12
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However, I do agree that I don't think it's a good idea to try to introduce cougars or wolves to the Adirondacks. Because of the time that it takes for a species to get established and the number of people who use the Adirondacks as well as the ignorant fear and hater many have against the predators, it wouldn't be good for the wolves.
While they were protected and/or became listed as game animals, cougars recolonized just about every inch of available western habitat, including every western urban interface, right up against

http://www.urbancarnivores.com/mountain-lions/

and into LA

http://www.urbancarnivores.com/mountain-lions/

...on their own.

Despite containing both a higher human/road density than the Adirondacks, and despite roadkills, poaching and being blamed/killed for livestock depredations (always a fraction compared to domestic dogs), the Black Hills National Forest developed into one of the most fecund breeding regions for cougars in North America.

3,000 wolves - twice as many as there were in ID, MT and WY before federal delisting - coexisted for thirty years just fine in another region with higher human/road densities than the Adirondacks - northern Minnesota (while another 1,000 wolves recolonized WI and the MI UP).

And there are bigger cats coexisting in far more developed, far smaller habitats surrounded by the world's most densely populated country, India

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...500297096.html

Please note that The Gir (1,412 km˛) supports 400 Asian lions in an area about 1/20th the size of the Daks (24,281 km2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_tiger

while wolves and European grizzlies (and lynx) are coexisting in Eastern Europe among higher human densities than the interior US Northeast

http://www.naturesstrongholds.com/EU...-MOUNTAINS.htm

The notion that with a little help wolf (eastern/reds; the jury remains out that grays were ever here) and cougar recovery can't happen in the Daks doesn't consider that they've already recovered regions on their own considered less ideal - some far less ideal - than the Daks.

The biggest thing holding back cougar recovery is the outdated fantasy that the East is too developed to support them.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:10 PM   #13
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very well done Gulo!
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:00 AM   #14
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Thank you, Blackhawk.

While the ADK lynx failure haunts Brocke & Co., the USFWS successfully test-released 19 Texas and captive-reared cougars in South GA/North FL and recaptured them after two years, with the recovery team concluding that the

Reestablishment of additional Florida panther populations is biologically feasible. It would require incorporating theadvantages and planning around the disadvantages of both captive-raised and wild-caught translocated animals. There are enough habitat and prey available in northern Florida and southern Georgia to support a viable, self-sustaining population of Florida panthers. This population would expand in a relatively short period of time and despersers from this population likely would travel throughout many of the southeastern states.

http://www.panthersociety.org/study.html#abstract

However, the team also concluded that certain human elements (roadkills, poaching, livestock depredations) would impede recovery, elements that were being disproved simultaneously as cougars were naturally recolonizing regions like the Black Hills. Needless to say, South GA/North FL has higher human/road densities than the Daks. One radio-collared male made it to the SC line, where he stayed and went undetected/unreported during his two-year sojourn.

Cougars can make it easily in eastern landscapes.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:16 PM   #15
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To some extent, I think cougars would be more feasible than wolves. I may be wrong, but I think cougars are less vocal than wolves (especially over long distances) and therefore people will not be able to easily know they are in the area.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:01 AM   #16
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Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.Im an avid deer hunter and dont want to see either wolves or lions reintroduced.The deer herd just cant handle more big predators.The deer per sq. mile here is very low here already.They played god out west reintroducing wolves and bye bye elk herd.My opinion.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:24 AM   #17
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Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.Im an avid deer hunter and dont want to see either wolves or lions reintroduced.The deer herd just cant handle more big predators.The deer per sq. mile here is very low here already.They played god out west reintroducing wolves and bye bye elk herd.My opinion.
Not to point out the obvious in this statement, but it sounds like your saying that you'd rather have humans kill deer (for sport) instead of cougars or wolves (for food). Although coyotes and black bear are known to have killed deer, it is pretty rare, which would make the main predator of deer, humans.

I support hunting, have several family members that hunt, and absolutely love venison and other game that they share with me. That being said, deer and elk have coexisted with wolves and cougars for hundreds of thousands of years on this continent and I think that with the correct planning and support, reintroducing these apex predators could actually work to benefit all.

As far as tourism or safety is concerned, I do not think it would hurt in the long term. Look at Yellowstone, the Tetons, or Glacier...people flock to these places knowing full well that there are grizzlies, wolves, and cougars there. Look at alligators and sharks in Florida. People still own waterfront property and go swimming there, knowing the risks involved. It's all about taking the proper precautions while you enjoy the scenery around you....and by the way, aren't we all doing that anyways considering we have a nice population of black bear?
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:37 AM   #18
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Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.Im an avid deer hunter and dont want to see either wolves or lions reintroduced.The deer herd just cant handle more big predators.The deer per sq. mile here is very low here already.They played god out west reintroducing wolves and bye bye elk herd.My opinion.
" The caribou feeds the wolf, but it is the wolf that keeps the caribou strong."
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:33 PM   #19
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Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.Im an avid deer hunter and dont want to see either wolves or lions reintroduced.The deer herd just cant handle more big predators.The deer per sq. mile here is very low here already.They played god out west reintroducing wolves and bye bye elk herd.My opinion.
Another way to look at it is that the big predators can't afford any more humans.

As far as your opinion goes, you're entitled to it. But before you form one, get the facts straight. Especially the "bye, bye, elk herd". Other then the old argument that "the predators will destroy the elk herds" in the places where they (The predators) have been reintroduced, there is no proof to that statement. In fact the herds are healthier from what I've heard from park rangers and others who are familiar with those sorts of things.

Out of curiosity, If "The deer herds could not survive the big predators", would it not be prudent to prohibit the main modern day predators (humans) from hunting them?

Nothing wrong with "playing God" if they are returning things to the state that God created.

That's just my opinion.
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:46 PM   #20
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Out of curiosity, If "The deer herds could not survive the big predators", would it not be prudent to prohibit the main modern day predators (humans) from hunting them?
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