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Old 02-08-2017, 12:46 PM   #1
Blackhawk
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nys: coyote/coywolf contests

much more education is required for a creature who helps to prevent tick borne diseases like lyme disease and other bacterial infections - sometime difficult to cure if not detected in time. some of these diseases go undiagnosed completely while other maladies are blamed.
then to add insult and ignorance to injury these creatures are killed based upon assumptions, rumors and false information.
I personally know hunters who leave the woods immediately when they get one tick on their clothing. yet they still support the unnecessary killing the nemesis of tick vectors (e.g., small rodents) en masse.


http://www.syracuse.com/outdoors/ind...y_contest.html
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Old 02-08-2017, 02:31 PM   #2
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Fear and ignorance is the cause for prejudice. Education is the answer to those who choose to listen. The Coyote is not the enemy.

This contest is embarrassing. Any contest where you have to kill in numbers to get a trophy is morally wrong methinks. There needs to be a label for the conscientious environmentalist who also hunts. The label "hunter" is one that includes groups that view nature with a different perspective than myself.
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Old 02-08-2017, 06:42 PM   #3
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another report from Vermont today.

http://www.wcax.com/story/34456908/v...riggers-debate
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Old 02-09-2017, 09:57 AM   #4
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I like your teach a man/woman to fish bit. I once saw a parody of this: "Build a man a fire and he's warm for the evening. Set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!"

Had to laugh.
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:20 PM   #5
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I've never hunted in a contest, and I don't know that I ever would, but these guys are hunters (regardless of whether or not you like their motivations), there is fair chase, and coyotes are extremely well established in the northeast (to the point where no amount of hunting contests are going to threaten their population).

They play a key role in our local ecosystem, especially when it comes to controlling smaller game and rodents. But just like any other game species, there needs to be a balanced management approach. Other than human hunters, there is very little controlling the coyote numbers. And their growing population has started to affect other species, like fox and deer. And before anyone else chimes in with the "coyote don't kill many deer" argument....they do go after the fawn quite a bit in the spring and have been known to take down adult-sized deer (though not as frequently).

I consider myself a "conscientious environmentalist hunter" and while this type of hunting isn't my cup of tea, I have no problem with it, so long as there are proper DEC oversight and regulations in place to ensure the coyote population stays healthy...which there are.

Also, keep in mind that while people with an outside perspective may view this as pointless and wasteful hunting, coyote fur has a decent market demand, so a lot of coyote hunters (competition or otherwise) do use parts of the coyote after the kill.
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Old 02-09-2017, 04:20 PM   #6
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I've never hunted in a contest, and I don't know that I ever would, but these guys are hunters (regardless of whether or not you like their motivations), there is fair chase, and coyotes are extremely well established in the northeast (to the point where no amount of hunting contests are going to threaten their population).

They play a key role in our local ecosystem, especially when it comes to controlling smaller game and rodents. But just like any other game species, there needs to be a balanced management approach. Other than human hunters, there is very little controlling the coyote numbers. And their growing population has started to affect other species, like fox and deer. And before anyone else chimes in with the "coyote don't kill many deer" argument....they do go after the fawn quite a bit in the spring and have been known to take down adult-sized deer (though not as frequently).

I consider myself a "conscientious environmentalist hunter" and while this type of hunting isn't my cup of tea, I have no problem with it, so long as there are proper DEC oversight and regulations in place to ensure the coyote population stays healthy...which there are.

Also, keep in mind that while people with an outside perspective may view this as pointless and wasteful hunting, coyote fur has a decent market demand, so a lot of coyote hunters (competition or otherwise) do use parts of the coyote after the kill.


You said it and I agree "Pointless" or actually detrimental. Coywolves will self regulate their own territory (pushing out rivals). When their shot by some hunter then a new younger less experienced animal moves in. Having not yet learned to leave that farm alone or stay away from this or that. (The older established pairs learn that overtime). When allowed to "live" (seems strange to have to say that) Mature adults mark and protect their own established territories of 10 plus square miles. Everyone is better off when they are left alone. Remember this is really about people trying to make a buck (the new god) looking to talk the public into this sort of thing. When people like yourself "lawfully and respectfully hunt specific species (deer, turkey) in a regulated fashion to feed their family or to protect livestock during an actual predator attack then - I can understand although I do not hunt (unless in an emergency - since my fridge has food). I respect the animals "right to live" and other peoples right to admire them -alive. Having a bunch of people with a contest to see how many they can kill of a species, "especially' predators without a reason provided earlier to me says they shouldn't be allowed to carry a firearm because there is clearly a lack of reasoning, empathy & wisdom. Mother Nature doesnt need to be balanced by humans - the opposite is true (she finds balance without our interference), The Coywolves own their coats they need them. That sort of thing is just Murdering them because because someone likes the fur in my opinion. If it was 1750 and you needed a coat to survive then one could have an argument. Today thats just more tons of toxic lead in our forests and watersheds toxifying the environment. More wonderful adirondack autumn days ruined by the constant crack crack crack of loud youngsters playing at war without actually enlisting in the military. The best thing I suggest is more Adirondackers travel to Baxter Park in Maine where there is no hunting in that quadrant (only in surrounding ares). You will instantly see a bounty of wildlife Moose, Deer, Bear etc etc Although we have all of those here in the Adirondacks not in that level of animal density, and of course they are all scared to death of humans for obvious reasons. My hope would be one day we would see the Adirondacks in a different way then people do today, Instead of a "resource" like a grocery store for our huge population we would see the region as a - biological life boat. With the state if the world today, they and we need it.
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Old 02-09-2017, 04:11 PM   #7
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Bounder, A lucid, well written response.

I believe that the coyote population is self-controlling. I am not worried that said contest is going to decimate the population. It is the way coyotes are demonized and are placed in a category apart from nature that distresses me.

As far as them preying on deer...I like my woods as wild as possible, I like my deer wild as possible not pasteurized.
I honestly didn't consider the fur harvest and it is far more humane, methinks, to dispatch a yote with a bullet than a trap.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against fur trappers as they take on the role of our lost predators.
Except for the trapper who trapped out my favorite meadow of beaver. That place was looking sweet, the transformation was fun to watch.

Walking back to camp in the dark, suddenly hearing a pack of coyotes howl, the hair on the back of your neck stands up, you just made contact with your primordial ancestors, you are suddenly more aware, more conscious, more alive.
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Old 02-09-2017, 04:48 PM   #8
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The main way mother nature controls predator populations is through starvation and disease, which while natural, is probably not something that any of us want to deal with (whether we hunt or take photos).

I've seen and heard coyotes out in the wild. They certainly do bring their own element to the NY landscape, and I'm glad we have them. So I don't want them wiped out, and I highly doubt most dedicated predator hunters would want that either...for the simple reason of if they get wiped out, they would have nothing left to hunt.

Coyote contests seem popular out in the rural areas, where people tend to have a more practical view of coyote management. And I think a few elements factor in to why coyote hunting and contests are becoming so popular out there:
- Coyotes are well-populated and very resilient (both as individuals and a population) with looser regulations relative to other game. Many farmers are looking to keep their numbers in check, so land access is rarely a hindrance. So coyote hunting is a bit more accessible than other forms of hunting, especially for people who are new to hunting.
- Their pelts can fetch a half decent price depending on the quality and the season, so there is some financial incentive there.
- They can become an issue for livestock (and pets) if left unchecked. Hunting is viewed as part of an overarching conservation strategy (which includes fencing, trapping, guardian dogs and other methods) that aims to discourage predation.

I've talked with a few ranchers/farmers here in NY and out west. Out west is quickly becoming a whole different story as grizzlies and wolves bring a level of predator activity that we just aren't used to here in the east. Most of those I talked weren't big into predator hunting themselves (mostly because they're too busy with work) but were accepting, if not outright welcoming, of predator (coyote) hunters. I suppose like everything else, our perceptions of coyotes will vary depending on where we are and what we do for a living.


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The best thing I suggest is more Adirondackers travel to Baxter Park in Maine where there is no hunting in that quadrant (only in surrounding ares). You will instantly see a bounty of wildlife Moose, Deer, Bear etc etc Although we have all of those here in the Adirondacks not in that level of animal density, and of course they are all scared to death of humans for obvious reasons.
I'm not going to respond to any of your points about the morality (or supposed lack thereof) regarding predator and sport hunting. I have my own views on that topic, and I know enough about some of the personalities on this forum that I realize no amount of "discussion" is going to change some people's opinions.

On the issue of animal density in the ADK's compared to Baxter (in Maine) I will say that hunting is not the reason there is such a huge discrepancy in animal densities. Logging is.

Maine has many active and former working forests, with more opened up areas which promote more vegetation and natural plant life that rodents, upland bird, small game, deer and even bear will feed on. The ADK's, by comparison, has more mature forests and less opened up areas (generally-speaking).

I agree the ADK's wildlife density is smaller compared to Maine and other areas. I've bushwhacked into some pretty remote areas of the ADK's for hunting and camping trips. I promise you that very few hunters in the ADk's are going into those remote areas for game. It's a whole lot of effort and risk, for what is often times very little reward (other than the experience of being outside of course).

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Old 02-10-2017, 12:38 PM   #9
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Yet another wildlife post stuffed with a "logging commercial". Lets just stick with the given topic having this post turn into logging industry propaganda is not useful. Mother nature does great "without" being carved up for cash. Sighting examples of huge feilds of blueberry bushes in a mowed down forest isn't going to change that. Baxter is not a big logging area, it was protected so it did not become one like the surroundig region. "That" itself is what benefited the wildlife - Old growth forests are as much about the moisture on the forest floor as they are about ancient relationships between plants and mycelium. Truck tire ruts and a bunch of similar species the same age and calling it a "managed forest" is "not" the biological lifeboat we are referring too. Hopefully those that care about natural biodiversity and understand the importance of the predator prey roles in nature are the ones who help protect the integrity of the adirondacks. When the concerns are only economic then why live in the back country?
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Old 02-10-2017, 10:15 AM   #10
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I've never hunted in a contest but I have gone coyote hunting, or for whatever biological species variation we may have here in North Country. I've hunted them on my own property. I used to despise coyotes but as I've aged I've come to respect them as both part of the ecosystem and a game species. Farmers, who would never allow you to hunt deer or turkeys on their farms welcome coyote hunters with open arms for obvious reasons. As for the fur market, I have seen some sales figures from this year and a few of them have higher than expected prices. They're posted on the NYS Trappers Association website.

I'm no expert but I do feel that hunting and trapping do keep numbers in check, but only on a temporary basis. I agree with one study I read about that said even if you eradicate an entire local population within 2-5 years it will repopulate if a desired food source is present. One desired food source is deer in any vulnerable form and not just fawns. I just got a trail camera photo of a doe being chased by a coyote deep in the Wilcox Lake Wilderness.

I understand the emotion some have towards hunting predators. I also understand the role hunting and trapping play in keeping populations in check.
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Old 02-10-2017, 11:19 AM   #11
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I find the reasoning for it more pitiful excuses by those looking to rational it.

Population control? This hunt will have zero effect and could cause a spike in population.

Pelt sales? Eastern coyote pelts are the bottom of the barrel. A NY coyote pelt would be fortunate to bring $20-$25 (Alberta pelts fetch 3x that). I don't know about you but I'm not fiddling with a coyote pelt for $20.

Worried about livestock? Don't be birthing calfs out in the back forty. Only a lazy man does that. Bring the cow into the barn or yard where you can watch it. For sheep fence your big field into smaller parcels so your guard dog can watch them better.

Pets. Keep your cat indoors where it's not killing songbirds. Do you know how many morons out there shoot a roaming cat? And get it neutered.

Don't leave your dog tied up outside to a dog box. Build a proper kennel for it.

Finally if coyotes had such an impact on deer than why are there more deer after coyotes moved in than at any time previously?
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:23 PM   #12
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I find the reasoning for it more pitiful excuses by those looking to rational it.

Population control? This hunt will have zero effect and could cause a spike in population.

Pelt sales? Eastern coyote pelts are the bottom of the barrel. A NY coyote pelt would be fortunate to bring $20-$25 (Alberta pelts fetch 3x that). I don't know about you but I'm not fiddling with a coyote pelt for $20.

Worried about livestock? Don't be birthing calfs out in the back forty. Only a lazy man does that. Bring the cow into the barn or yard where you can watch it. For sheep fence your big field into smaller parcels so your guard dog can watch them better.

Pets. Keep your cat indoors where it's not killing songbirds. Do you know how many morons out there shoot a roaming cat? And get it neutered.

Don't leave your dog tied up outside to a dog box. Build a proper kennel for it.

Finally if coyotes had such an impact on deer than why are there more deer after coyotes moved in than at any time previously?

Well written, great points all the way around.
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:59 PM   #13
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Population control? This hunt will have zero effect and could cause a spike in population.
That's depends on your concept of population control. In the long term, coyotes are very capable of maintaining and even growing their population when under casual pressure. In the short term, taking a few coyotes out in the mid to late winter does mean that there are a few less hungry mouths around when the spring birthing season occurs, which takes some pressure off deer and livestock alike.

This is why coyote hunting is generally accepted by farmers, who sometimes are even willing to pay for hunters' and trappers' services (it's usually the other way around for hunting other types of species on private land).


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Pelt sales? Eastern coyote pelts are the bottom of the barrel. A NY coyote pelt would be fortunate to bring $20-$25 (Alberta pelts fetch 3x that). I don't know about you but I'm not fiddling with a coyote pelt for $20.
This auction sheet is a year old at this point, but I've heard that market demand this year is similar to what it was last year: http://www.nafa.ca/wp-content/upload...ull-Report.pdf

A good eastern coyote pelt can fetch $60, a top-notch one can fetch almost $100. It's a market demand that has its ups and downs; as of late the prices have been half-decent.

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Worried about livestock? Don't be birthing calfs out in the back forty. Only a lazy man does that. Bring the cow into the barn or yard where you can watch it. For sheep fence your big field into smaller parcels so your guard dog can watch them better.
Not every rancher or farmer can afford to bring their livestock in to a centralized location. A lot of cattle and sheep ranches grass-feed their animals and rely on remote pasture rotation to keep the animals healthy. And even if birthing takes place within a barn, the young animals are still vulnerable for a period of time following their birth.

Guard dogs have become more prevalent and popular over the years, but when the coyote packs get big enough and bold enough, it is not unheard of for those dogs to get targeted as well.

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Pets. Keep your cat indoors where it's not killing songbirds. Do you know how many morons out there shoot a roaming cat? And get it neutered.

Don't leave your dog tied up outside to a dog box. Build a proper kennel for it.
I think most people living in the countryside know how to manage their pets. But when you have coyotes harassing or even attacking pets at your back door or while out on a walk, I see that as an indicator that local population has gotten a bit too bold. I don't hear about that happening here in NY too much, but those kinds of incidents are not unheard of in some of the western states and parts of Canada where coyote numbers are very high.

Like I said earlier, I don't thinking hunting is the sole solution to coyote issues, but rather is part of an overall patch-work of strategies (some of which you mentioned).

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Finally if coyotes had such an impact on deer than why are there more deer after coyotes moved in than at any time previously?
Deer #'s have grown consistently over the last several decades due to a combination of factors:
- Regulated hunting seasons, as opposed to unregulated hunting which has led to decline and extirpation in the past.
- An abundance of farm fields which support high deer #'s.
- Better management practices by both state agencies and private landowners who are better informed on how to promote wildlife habitation.

In fact, many scientists estimate that the deer #'s we have now far surpass the #'s that existed at the time of European colonization...a lot of that has to do with there being more prime deer habitat (farm fields mixed with forested areas).

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Old 02-10-2017, 01:35 PM   #14
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Finally if coyotes had such an impact on deer than why are there more deer after coyotes moved in than at any time previously?
I'm not sure where there's more deer now than there were previously. Perhaps the Southern Zone? But, this is an Adirondack forum and up here my experience is that whitetail populations fluctuate. I can only speak for our own group but in the three spots we hunt more 'yotes equates to fewer deer (and turkeys), especially at a spot I hunt in the Northern ADKs. I know two very well-respected hunters who have kept journals since the 1950s and their experience and data shows the same. We hunters have all learned to live with this but will choose whitetails over coyotes. Others obviously feel differently and that is their right, also.
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Old 02-10-2017, 03:49 PM   #15
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Lots of conflicting information Bounder. This is going to an area not related to the post but so many inaccuracies in your post that need correcting.

I believe you have cattle raising here confused with Texas or out west somewhere.

Just about all cattle in this part of North America are winter or spring calved. Cattle in the field are fed over winter. Usually hay because we have lots of it. Cattle do poor outside here winter as opposed to out west. Its the dampness.

You put out two Great Pyrenees with a flock of sheep in an enclosure they can watch and you will have little problems with coyotes.

I don't know why you think rural people have a better understanding of how to keep their pets. They are among the worst pet abusers. Suggest to a farmer to get his barn cats neutered? He'd laugh his head off.

My father (who is 85 and still hunts coyotes) said they got roughly $30 each last year. Some brought more, some less. You better know how to prep the hide and shot pelts are not the same as a trapped pelt.

Buckladd, I was speaking of the population in general. In the ADK's according to the DEC the numbers are at least stable now but far greater than in the past. There is concern about the maturing forest in the ADK's. According to the DEC coyotes have little impact on the deer population.
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Old 02-10-2017, 04:56 PM   #16
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Just about all cattle in this part of North America are winter or spring calved.
Yep, that's what I meant by the spring birthing season.

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Cattle in the field are fed over winter. Usually hay because we have lots of it. Cattle do poor outside here winter as opposed to out west. Its the dampness.
Hay is used by a lot of farmers, but I've met more than a few who use rotational grazing and their livestock aren't always consolidated. That aside, I think you underestimate how busy the average farmer is; most of them don't have the time to spare to constantly watch over their animals, especially for larger operations. Coyotes are very adept at making their move when you're least prepared.

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You put out two Great Pyrenees with a flock of sheep in an enclosure they can watch and you will have little problems with coyotes.
You make it sound so easy. Well from talking to farmers/ranchers here in the east and out west, I've heard that it isn't that easy. I've also hunted in a few areas where coyote are quite abundant. They can become quit a nuisance, or even a threat, as they grow in number and become more habituated to human activity. Guardian animals are just one of many strategies that rural landowners use; they're not a panacea for dealing with large numbers of coyotes.

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I don't know why you think rural people have a better understanding of how to keep their pets. They are among the worst pet abusers.
I don't know why you think it's okay to broadstroke people like that. Some of these people live with and deal with coyotes on a daily basis; you might actually learn something new if you take the time to talk to them.

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My father (who is 85 and still hunts coyotes) said they got roughly $30 each last year. Some brought more, some less. You better know how to prep the hide and shot pelts are not the same as a trapped pelt.
I guess the price will depend on who you're selling the pelt to and if there are any middlemen involved. And to be honest, even $20-$30 is decent compared to past prices.
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:19 AM   #17
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Lots of conflicting information Bounder. This is going to an area not related to the post but so many inaccuracies in your post that need correcting.

I believe you have cattle raising here confused with Texas or out west somewhere.

Just about all cattle in this part of North America are winter or spring calved. Cattle in the field are fed over winter. Usually hay because we have lots of it. Cattle do poor outside here winter as opposed to out west. Its the dampness.

You put out two Great Pyrenees with a flock of sheep in an enclosure they can watch and you will have little problems with coyotes.

I don't know why you think rural people have a better understanding of how to keep their pets. They are among the worst pet abusers. Suggest to a farmer to get his barn cats neutered? He'd laugh his head off.

My father (who is 85 and still hunts coyotes) said they got roughly $30 each last year. Some brought more, some less. You better know how to prep the hide and shot pelts are not the same as a trapped pelt.

Buckladd, I was speaking of the population in general. In the ADK's according to the DEC the numbers are at least stable now but far greater than in the past. There is concern about the maturing forest in the ADK's. According to the DEC coyotes have little impact on the deer population.
Dr. John C. Kilgo[4]at the U.S. Forest Service at the Savannah River Site in South Carolina conducted one of the largest studies concerning the affects of coyotes on whitetail deer.* Sixty fawns were collared and observed.* Within the first 6 weeks 73% (44) of the fawns died. *Approximately 80% (35) were killed by coyotes, 13% (6) were killed by bobcat, and 7% (3) by unknown causes.* Dr. John C. Kilgo conducted another study on the adjoining land with deer having no collars and using only trail cameras to prove that the collars didn’t slow the fawns down.* The mortality rate was the same.* Dr. Kilgo’s most recent studies disproves the theory that fawning cover will reduce the predation of fawns finding the same results as land with less fawning cover.* Dr. Kilgo and Christopher Shaw of the U.S. Forestry Service tested the theory of “predator swamping” where the buck-to-doe ratio was balanced, wherefore all the fawns would drop at the same time. *They conducted a test on 2 tracts of land, on the first tract the deer had a high density and on the second tract a low deer density. *Even though the land had roughly the same amount of coyotes the rate of predation was roughly the same.
In year 2005, Dr. Stephen Ditchkoff [5]of Auburn University and his students began collaring 50 fawns a year.* When starting, they scarcely had a fawn killed by coyotes, but in 2008 34% were lost and in 2009 over half were lost.* Mark Buxton[6], a wildlife manager with Southeastern Wildlife Habitat Services in Thomaston Alabama, says at the QDMA’s annual convention in Louisville Kentucky “…food plots, timber stand improvements, and restoring native vegetation… can maximize their (the deer) potential. *The coyote is the next big part of that equation.”* Buxton says “if coyotes are not a problem on your hunting property they will be in a few years.”* It has been said that fawns were at the wrong place at the wrong time.* Buxton believes this is not the case.* He trapped predators in 2009 during 3 months of spring and caught 20 coyotes and 15 bobcats from 1500 acres, beginning about a month before fawning begins.* After 1 year, Buxton had caught 49 coyotes and continued into the 2010 fawning season trapping 14 more.* In total, 54% of the coyotes trapped were caught during fawning season (34 of 63).* “That tells me when coyotes are targeting fawns” Buxton states “when fawns hit the ground its game on for coyotes”. **Ditchkoff agrees, saying, “coyotes might have learned to identify doe behaviors that indicate fawns are nearby. That’s not unheard of. *In Alaska, they’ve documented that when a cow moose acts in a way that indicates a calf is nearby, brown bears start a systematic search to find the calf. They just hammer moose
https://gameandgarden.com/sustainabi...r-populations/

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Old 02-11-2017, 01:43 AM   #18
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I just finished reading Coyote America by Dan Flores and found it an enjoyable and enlightening read. Perhaps others might as well.

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Old 02-11-2017, 07:25 AM   #19
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I just finished reading Coyote America by Dan Flores and found it an enjoyable and enlightening read. Perhaps others might as well.

Bio, The author is from the West, is this book only about the Western Coyote or does he elaborate about the Eastern Coyote as well?
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Old 02-11-2017, 08:38 AM   #20
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Bio, The author is from the West, is this book only about the Western Coyote or does he elaborate about the Eastern Coyote as well?
He discusses the coyotes resiliency despite decades of private and government attempts to eradicate them and how these attempts may have actually aided them in their migration across america. While not exactly elaborating on the Eastern Coyote the book, IMO, does provide interesting discussion on the why we have coyote's in the Northeast.
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