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Old 09-03-2010, 07:51 AM   #21
Little Rickie
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Problem is that a lot of this isn't natures doing, it's human "management" or carelessness that's the cause.

Then the problem gets compounded because we don't like whats become of our management, even though in many cases, a different ecosystem has been created, and we then destroy that to try to "put it back". Duck Hole is a perfect example of that.

hawk
We are part of mother nature plan. We just don't know our roll yet.

In spite of the tone of my posts I am optimistic. We are showing signs of learning. Slow by our lifespan time frame but maybe not so slow in the time frame of thousands or tens of thousands of years.
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Old 09-03-2010, 08:35 AM   #22
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We are part of mother nature plan. We just don't know our roll yet.

In spite of the tone of my posts I am optimistic. We are showing signs of learning. Slow by our lifespan time frame but maybe not so slow in the time frame of thousands or tens of thousands of years.
Of all the species on the earth, we are the weakest. Without clothing or shelter we're incapable of surviving on our own. In spite of the arrogance of our assumed superiority, without tools we are the bottom of the food chain.

Our species is the most damaging to the environment and all other living things. We are responsible for the eradication of whole numbers of species of living thing. We are the only species that soil the place that we live.

While a predator kills for food, our species kills far more of our own because of greed, jealously, envy, hatred and sometimes just for the fun of it

Our species shows that the ability to think, rather then act solely on instinct is not necessarily a good thing.

And I'm NOT optimistic. History doesn't point to any reason why I should be.

Hawk
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Old 09-03-2010, 08:39 AM   #23
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We are part of mother nature plan. We just don't know our roll yet.
I don't think there is such a thing as mother nature or a plan of any sort. We are strictly on our own and improvising as we go along.
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:05 AM   #24
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I don't think there is such a thing as mother nature or a plan of any sort. We are strictly on our own and improvising as we go along.
Don't take the term "Mother Nature" too literally. Weither there is a grand plan or not is a matter of faith not fact.

I am willing to acknoledge that I am no more than a spark or a speck of sand and what I do know is infinitly smaller that what I do not know.

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Our species shows that the ability to think, rather then act solely on instinct is not necessarily a good thing.
but we do have the ability to, eventually, learn from our mistakes as well and we do, albeit rather slowly.
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:11 AM   #25
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I understand Rickie's posts, I think. Thus I do not see them as a bad attitude or even one who thinks we should do whatever the heck we want. Simply put, that migration of these invasives will happen regardless of our actions or inaction. we can only slow the rate of migration. As has been pointed out we can also increase the rate of migration which I do not think anyone advocates. It is truly unfortunate that we as humans have increased this rate of migration exponentially with inter-continental travel and transport. Does this mean we do nothing to slow the migration? Of course not, but all of our choices will have a cost associated, the most effective would be for us (humans) to eradicate ourselves or decide to not transport ourselves or goods anymore, however this will still not eliminate the migration, only slow it to a rate > zero. This is of course the most extreme "solution" but as stated, it still doesn't solve the problem. It only slows it. We can make "cheaper" choices like not transporting wood, or cleaning our boat hulls but these also will not solve the problem. Resistance IS futile. Species migration will continue to happen and the ecosystems will change whether we want it to or not. The only constant is change.
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:16 AM   #26
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We are the only species that soil the place that we live.

Hawk

Is this not the complaint we have of the invasives? Unless our working definitions of the term "soil" differ.
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:21 AM   #27
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Duct: I think we could certainly slow the tide greatly by eliminating the import of "pets" and plants that later become invasive species when people throw them out or let them go. Look at the fish species and snakes that are getting released and multiplying. Also the Japanese Knotweed that Price Chopper sells in their flower shops. That stuff is really hard to eradicate--I have been fighting with some in my back yard for 15 years. Thanks to the invasive species workshop, I now know how to get rid of it.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:09 AM   #28
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but we do have the ability to, eventually, learn from our mistakes as well and we do, albeit rather slowly.
One book that I found to be phenomenally interesting in this regard is by Jared Diamond. Pick up "Collapse" and get ready for a fascinating read.

Somewhat dryer but also a very interesting book is, "Limits to Growth. The 30 year update."

With respect to species soiling their environment it's of interest that the first organisms on Earth persisted for a few billion years in supposedly massive quantities but they poisoned the atmosphere so badly that they died off just as massively and today only a few survive in restricted environments.

What did these archaic photosynthesizing bacteria pollute their environment with that killed them off?

Oxygen, which is a very highly toxic and reactive substance.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:18 AM   #29
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Do you think the knew what they were doing?
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:31 AM   #30
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gotta go have a great weekend everyone!!!
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:35 AM   #31
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One book that I found to be phenomenally interesting in this regard is by Jared Diamond. Pick up "Collapse" and get ready for a fascinating read.

Somewhat dryer but also a very interesting book is, "Limits to Growth. The 30 year update."

With respect to species soiling their environment it's of interest that the first organisms on Earth persisted for a few billion years in supposedly massive quantities but they poisoned the atmosphere so badly that they died off just as massively and today only a few survive in restricted environments.

What did these archaic photosynthesizing bacteria pollute their environment with that killed them off?

Oxygen, which is a very highly toxic and reactive substance.
Well, fortunately for them, we humans are reversing the process.

Great book by the way. A must for any intelligent, open minded person who wants to be informed.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:38 AM   #32
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Duct: I think we could certainly slow the tide greatly by eliminating the import of "pets" and plants that later become invasive species when people throw them out or let them go. Look at the fish species and snakes that are getting released and multiplying. Also the Japanese Knotweed that Price Chopper sells in their flower shops. That stuff is really hard to eradicate--I have been fighting with some in my back yard for 15 years. Thanks to the invasive species workshop, I now know how to get rid of it.
Agreed. For sure we are a vector for the transport of invasives and a very efficient vector at that. I don't think many would argue against the easy steps which are not "cost prohibitive" to slow the migration. The difficult question is at what point does the balance tip to "cost prohibitive" (cost involves more than $).

Many species' adaptations have developed to maximize their "ability" to be transported. The Earth is a dynamic system in which it will always be changing and this change has always involved the migration of species which took over an area even without our help and will continue to do so when our species is gone.
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Old 09-03-2010, 02:36 PM   #33
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Is this not the complaint we have of the invasives? Unless our working definitions of the term "soil" differ.
No, I was thinking of what we as a species are doing to our air, our water and our soil. We are slowly poisoning it. How often now do we here "Don't go out unless you absolutely have to" on the weather as a result of the air quality. And if you noticed it now includes EVERYONE, not just those with respiratory problems.

We are putting chemicals and other toxic things into the ground and we have a great deal of toxic waste that we really have no place to put it that we can be sure that it's safe.

So, we are poisoning our own home, the planet that we live on. It has incresed every year since the beginning of the "industrial revolution" starting with the "Coal burning age", which we still burn for power houses BTW because it's "cheaper". It's also the cause of the acid rain that we have here in the east.

That's what I mean by "soiling the place that we live".

Hawk
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:28 PM   #34
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A very timely thread........here's just the latest of invaders:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100903/...invasive_clams
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:31 PM   #35
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& on the Great Lakes front: http://www.physorg.com/news202722595.html

Think the last paragraph in the article's a "little excessive" w/the prediction.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:33 AM   #36
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SP NYP: Eurasian milfoil can not be eradicated from a lake. At best you can keep it at bay if it is caught early on. Every fragment of that stuff that breaks off can form a new plant. If they are in the last year of harvesting it by hand, it will rebound quickly. I don't mean to be a naysayer, but that's the way it is.
That is just the initial removal phase - I believe they also were using some mats to block sun.

There is a plan to do yearly inspections/removal.

I agree, probably the only surefire way to keep it out is to restrict the cross-lake contamination from boats.
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:38 PM   #37
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One way to get rid of invasive species is to introduce another species to destroy the first one. Say, a bacterium, a brand new one designed on a computer, created in a lab, then released into the ecosystem to destroy the original invasive. I am sure it would work. Just don't try it first out up here in Canada.
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:54 PM   #38
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One way to get rid of invasive species is to introduce another species to destroy the first one. Say, a bacterium, a brand new one designed on a computer, created in a lab, then released into the ecosystem to destroy the original invasive. I am sure it would work. Just don't try it first out up here in Canada.
They do it all the time! After all, the reason for the success of invasives is the lack of predatory or competing species that keep them in check in their natural habitat.

The Gypsy Moth was brought under control by a deadly fungus referred to as "Em" - http://northernwoodlands.org/article...haga-maimaiga/

The beetles they've been using on Purple Loosetrife absolutely defoliate the plants - they do some amazing work.

Of course they need to do plenty of research beforehand to make reasonably sure that the cure isn't as bad or worse than the disease.
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Old 09-07-2010, 02:12 PM   #39
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Then, in early June of 1989, out of the blue, Em started killing gypsy moths in huge numbers in southwestern Connecticut. This time, the fungus spread extremely rapidly, mostly without human assistance, and by 1992 Em was killing gypsy moths by the millions throughout most of their U.S. range. The source of this unexpectedly successful biological phenomenon is a mystery.
That is the part that scares me - they introduce this fungus and then it does its own mysterious thing... out of the blue.
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Old 09-07-2010, 02:27 PM   #40
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Then, in early June of 1989, out of the blue, Em started killing gypsy moths in huge numbers in southwestern Connecticut. This time, the fungus spread extremely rapidly, mostly without human assistance, and by 1992 Em was killing gypsy moths by the millions throughout most of their U.S. range. The source of this unexpectedly successful biological phenomenon is a mystery.
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That is the part that scares me - they introduce this fungus and then it does its own mysterious thing... out of the blue.
It happens all the time.

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The cane beetle, is a native Australian beetle and a pest of the sugar cane.

The cane beetle was the reason that the cane toad was introduced in Australia. The cane toad was supposed to combat the beetles, to protect the sugar cane. However, it didn't, and became a major pest.
George Carlin believes that humans were introduced on Earth in order to help out with a perceived plastic shortage. The theory is that Earth thought it didn't have enough plastic so to remedy this shortage it introduced humans as a way of "beefing up" the overall amount of plastic available.

Just look at how that turned out.

Now we need to find a way to get rid of the humans (except me and Redhawk of course). One possible solution: the Internet.
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