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Old 07-09-2014, 07:24 AM   #361
cityboy
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How about instead of silly talk we keep it serious, here's a serious question for you: When the time comes to classify the Boreas and Follensby Ponds area will you be crying about wanting roads and snowmobile trails to remain or will you support them being classified as wilderness?

Also, WHY would it be a one time event? If a person or business can tweak their plans to the APA's satisfaction how can the APA legally decline anybody else after this ruling? I know you don't understand this but it sets a bad precedent.
Absolutely. Public money used to make public land purchases means public access for all. Its not just your personal play land but should be enjoyed by all (including the rich and the locals that you like to bad mouth). If the roads and trails did not exist that's one thing but they are there already so they should remain to provide access.
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Old 07-09-2014, 08:02 AM   #362
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Public access does not equate to type of activity nor means of use. I have public access on the thruway but am prohibited from using it as a hiking trail or a bike path. Those who are unable to drive also may not use it except as a passenger.

The same is true for exclusion of motorized vehicles on certain areas. These exclusions do not mean any member of the public is denied access, only the type of activty and use is limited. All persons may still access the land and use it in accordance with the regulations by which all must abide.
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Old 07-09-2014, 08:47 AM   #363
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Absolutely. Public money used to make public land purchases means public access for all. Its not just your personal play land but should be enjoyed by all (including the rich and the locals that you like to bad mouth). If the roads and trails did not exist that's one thing but they are there already so they should remain to provide access.
I don't want these areas to be ANYONE'S "playground" - that is my point. I want it to be protected for nature itself. Nobody will stop you from visiting within the set guidelines.

And you made a comment about this development being a "one time thing" and failed to address how the APA could approve this for one group of individuals but not another.

Additionally, you don't acknowledge the APA's authority when it comes to limiting development on private property within the park...but you are OK with this since they decided to permit this development.

Then you make it clear that you prefer inferior protected status on lands acquired by the state in the future.

With all due respect the Adirondacks would not be very special if people with your mindset were permitted to do what they wanted all throughout the park. It would be carved up faster with motorized access on much more of the forest preserve. At that point, with the exception of higher peaks I might as well go camping in the Poconos.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:25 AM   #364
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This page

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/59645.html

provides some data for perspective.

Of the 6 million acres in the "park", the state controls 3.4 million, or 57%. 1.187 million acres are Wilderness, or 20% of the "park."

Yet when private land development is approved, we bemoan the "loss" and "carving up" of the "wilderness." Just inflammatory code words; standard procedure...
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:52 AM   #365
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This page

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/59645.html

provides some data for perspective.

Of the 6 million acres in the "park", the state controls 3.4 million, or 57%. 1.187 million acres are Wilderness, or 20% of the "park."

Yet when private land development is approved, we bemoan the "loss" and "carving up" of the "wilderness." Just inflammatory code words; standard procedure...
Tom,
Does the forever wild clause refer to all land inside the blue line or is it only applicable to land designated as wilderness? Lake Placid is inside the blue line but in spite of some of the bars there I would hardly consider it wild.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:06 AM   #366
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Neil, the "forever wild" clause applies to State Forest Preserve.

"The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands."

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/55849.html
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:33 AM   #367
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Neil, the "forever wild" clause applies to State Forest Preserve.

"The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands."

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/55849.html
Except if you are a Greek-owned mining conglomerate.
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:34 AM   #368
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Therer are other exceptions that have been approved and can be seen on the DEC page. Each one takes many years, two votes of the legislature, and a popular vote in order to implement. I don't think that any Greeks (or Chinese, or Russians, or Nigerians for that matter) got any kind of fast track...

But there is another thread for that topic...
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Old 07-09-2014, 03:24 PM   #369
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Yes the world is ending alright. Couldn't possibly be just a one time event.
Can't wait to discuss the next doom and gloom topic. Any guesses? Mine is a world class casino and resort on the Essex Chain. Why else would the State buy it?
Wow, Sarcasm now!

But you're actually right. The world is ending, scrap by scrap, piece by piece. Unchecked population growth and over consuming of resources. So the gloom and doom is right in plain sight. Always has been, however looking at the world through glasses that see only financial gain and creature comforts prevents doing anything about it. And then of course when the voices of sanity step in, they are demonized, like the Sierra Club, Greenpeace and the many other ecological and conservationist organizations.

We are so arrogant that we think that our intellect and technology can fix anything. We can do whatever what want and flaunt nature. How's that working out? Katrina all but wiped out New Orleans because of all the altering of the landscape. Rivers are flooding every year, fires are burning up Arizona and New Mexico. Beetles are destroying the forests all over the country. So sooner or later it's going to get completely out of balance and then in the final moment of realization we will understand that we are mere humans and that there are some things that cannot be undone, and that in the end there were many things best left alone. But, in our arrogance we thought we knew more than God.
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Old 07-09-2014, 06:23 PM   #370
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We are so arrogant that we think that our intellect and technology can fix anything. We can do whatever what want and flaunt nature. How's that working out? Katrina all but wiped out New Orleans because of all the altering of the landscape. Rivers are flooding every year, fires are burning up Arizona and New Mexico. Beetles are destroying the forests all over the country. So sooner or later it's going to get completely out of balance and then in the final moment of realization we will understand that we are mere humans and that there are some things that cannot be undone, and that in the end there were many things best left alone. But, in our arrogance we thought we knew more than God.
Your rant borders closely on a topic that has twice been banned from the forum. And you forgot to mention Tornados.

Fortunately your perception is all in your mind. Everything you have mentioned occurs every year except hurricanes.

Again. The world is not ending. But it is changing just like it has for 4.5 billion years.

And approval of one project does not mean automatic approval for future projects. I think the APA is doing a decent job. They appear to be striving for BALANCE. Something that never enters the vocabulary of the Sierra Club.

Oh, and if the APA decides to close all the roads in Follensby Pond I won't like it but I'll accept their decision because I know they are trying to do the best for the future of the Adirondacks.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:37 PM   #371
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In my puny little opinion, Hawk espouses exactly what should occur. A return to, and respect of, nature. I don't see that in the cards for the Adirondacks or anywhere else for that matter. Too bad.

Hawk is spot on about almost everything related to life...as it should be. A mentor for me, or anyone, with an ounce of common sense.

People have to make a living a small town America yet life in the wilderness hangs by a slender thread.

I don't know that the answer is. Life does march on and and progress does knock at the door of wilderness development. In the end, I'd choose to err on the side "non-development". Having said that, there has to be an answer for those who are native born to the Adirondacks and need to put food on the table.

I don't subscribe to the notion that rich people need to be taken down a notch or two. Spread the wealth baby. That sounds good in sociology lecture but without incentives who would invest in the Adirondacks, new vaccines, pharma, digital technology and more? Answer, no one.

Life is about compromise.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:24 AM   #372
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I don't subscribe to the notion that rich people need to be taken down a notch or two. Spread the wealth baby. That sounds good in sociology lecture but without incentives who would invest in the Adirondacks, new vaccines, pharma, digital technology and more? Answer,
A stronger middle class investing in 401K's?
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Old 07-10-2014, 06:44 AM   #373
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In my puny little opinion, Hawk espouses exactly what should occur. A return to, and respect of, nature. I don't see that in the cards for the Adirondacks or anywhere else for that matter. Too bad.

Hawk is spot on about almost everything related to life...as it should be. A mentor for me, or anyone, with an ounce of common sense.

People have to make a living a small town America yet life in the wilderness hangs by a slender thread.

I don't know that the answer is. Life does march on and and progress does knock at the door of wilderness development. In the end, I'd choose to err on the side "non-development". Having said that, there has to be an answer for those who are native born to the Adirondacks and need to put food on the table.

I don't subscribe to the notion that rich people need to be taken down a notch or two. Spread the wealth baby. That sounds good in sociology lecture but without incentives who would invest in the Adirondacks, new vaccines, pharma, digital technology and more? Answer, no one.

Life is about compromise.
Good Post!
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:45 AM   #374
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Your rant borders closely on a topic that has twice been banned from the forum. And you forgot to mention Tornados.

Fortunately your perception is all in your mind. Everything you have mentioned occurs every year except hurricanes.

Again. The world is not ending. But it is changing just like it has for 4.5 billion years.

And approval of one project does not mean automatic approval for future projects. I think the APA is doing a decent job. They appear to be striving for BALANCE. Something that never enters the vocabulary of the Sierra Club.

Oh, and if the APA decides to close all the roads in Follensby Pond I won't like it but I'll accept their decision because I know they are trying to do the best for the future of the Adirondacks.
Facts to some are "rants' to others. Especially those who don't want to take responsibility for the consequences. As far as the topic matter, I've been on this forum since it's beginning and am well aware of the rules. Often it's not what is said, but how it is said and the context it is put in. So, why not let the moderators moderate.

But not to the increasing extent that is recurring. It's amazing, at one point, corporations and people with vested interests denied the existence of Climate Change. "Alarmists, Doom sayers, Crackpot's" they cried. Then guess what? The evidence was incontrovertible. So then the Mantra became that it's not man made. But, sorry Charlie, it's exists and common sense can only lead to the conclusion that population and industry are the causes.

As for the approval of one project not opening the door for approval of other projects? Please, you strike me as intelligent and since you are in the realty business I am quite sure that you know the definition of the word "precedent". Tupper Lake will now be used as an example to try to open others for development. It's the way things play out.

I don't know how old you are, or how many places you have been to in your life. I'm 72 and have been to a lot of places, and have lived long enough to return to many of them decades later. I have witnessed the changes with my own eyes. I don't need anyone's opinion to see what has happened and what will continue to happen. I have also seen the changes accelerate. Eveb today, in everyday life, because of the masses of people, the uses of the resources necessary to feed, cloth, shelter and of course make them comfortable is outstripping our ability to renew them.

So, do the math. Take your head out of the sand, try to look beyond the money and it's perfectly clear. So clear it will smack you in the head if you can see with any reason. It's not "going" to happen. It IS happening.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:14 PM   #375
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I think we have covered at least once every point related and obliquely related to the Tupper lake project.

As for the exploitation, depletion and degradation of the planet's resources and the human impact on climactic conditions....well those are pretty huge topics in their own right. I can well imagine that sorting out fact from opinion would be a rather daunting task.

On a final note to offset some pessimism, I found "Limits to Growth the 30 Year Update" to be surprisingly optimistic. Will Homo sapiens last a million years longer? Stay tuned to ADK Forum to find out.
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