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Old 02-08-2012, 09:09 AM   #41
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From the viewpoint of someone who lives in a resort community where life is a bit of a PITA for seven weeks a summer...

Those rich people with the $ 600,000 properties do contribute to the tax base. The locals live on less expensive property and its kind of a blessing. The rich people have property taxes three times mine. And we call them "seven week wonders". Only here seven weeks and pay tax year round. They have no kids in school here and no facilities need be built for that.

Local economy.. locals do do property management ie maintenance for 45 weeks a year and snowplowing. The job market is basically unaffected. People here have always done a variety of jobs and telecommuting is becoming widespread. So we might look at new ways to work..rather than the old brick and mortar economy.

So were it not for rich people I might not have the steady cheap tax bill I have had over the years.

We will see how it pans out. Our ramblings have no effect.

Rich people do NOT demand every convenience nor do they get everything they want. The Selectboard sees to that. They do enrich our lives in the summer and make us appreciate what we have year round. And many are working rich and have the property here for retirement.

So far out of forty seasonal neighbors, ten have become full time residents in retirement or being able to work from here and do give to the community far more than they demand.
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:30 AM   #42
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They pay taxes and contribute towards some public sector jobs and some private sector jobs indirectly as a result. Still wondering if the pros of this particular development will outweigh the cons.
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:16 AM   #43
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Lets list the negatives.

Environmental degradation <--biggest concern
construction of permanant roads
construction of large footprint buildings
both = runoff issues into the river
Pollution from vehicles and garbage <--that's a big one.
Less diner stools at long lake
Traffic
With increased taxes means increased services and budget, which means more government, which means higher expenses --> More risk of fiscal mismanagment.

(I'm sure I missed some please feel free to add)

The APA does have authority to develop long range plan for the develoment of both public and private lands so the argument that this is private land and they should be allowed is not valid.

The agency strives to conserve natural resources such as water and timber.

The APA has set quite a few rules in place that should mitigate some of these issues such as vegetation removal and the shoreline and the distance houses need to be from the river, however close they still remain in my opinion. Maybe a concession was made and the houses will be further than the 50 foot requirement.

http://apa.ny.gov/documents/guidelin...izensguide.pdf

Anyone know the APA classification of the land in question? Rural/low intensity/hamlet?

I for one would rather see no development in the Daks and would suggest that folks that need to make more money should move out of the blue line. That being said the process is very restrictive against development right now. Even existing structures.
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:49 AM   #44
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Some of the issues can be addressed. Here you are not allowed to have a lawn and cannot cut vegetation without a permit and then its very regulated within 100 feet of the shoreline. Permanent structures are not allowed within 200 feet.

When you have development you have to watch for water quality issues. And here there are monitoring teams and a watershed association. Degrading water means declining property values. And there is nothing that screams an alarm bell faster to a rich person than a decline in investment.

I would be interested in the classification of the land in question too. The setbacks and minimum lot size are TINY! Our minimum lot width is 225 feet..hence the rich people can only afford that size of waterfront lot (two acre property minimum).
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:18 AM   #45
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From the viewpoint of someone who lives in a resort community where life is a bit of a PITA for seven weeks a summer...

Those rich people with the $ 600,000 properties do contribute to the tax base. The locals live on less expensive property and its kind of a blessing. The rich people have property taxes three times mine. And we call them "seven week wonders". Only here seven weeks and pay tax year round. They have no kids in school here and no facilities need be built for that.

Local economy.. locals do do property management ie maintenance for 45 weeks a year and snowplowing. The job market is basically unaffected. People here have always done a variety of jobs and telecommuting is becoming widespread. So we might look at new ways to work..rather than the old brick and mortar economy.

So were it not for rich people I might not have the steady cheap tax bill I have had over the years.

We will see how it pans out. Our ramblings have no effect.

Rich people do NOT demand every convenience nor do they get everything they want. The Selectboard sees to that. They do enrich our lives in the summer and make us appreciate what we have year round. And many are working rich and have the property here for retirement.

So far out of forty seasonal neighbors, ten have become full time residents in retirement or being able to work from here and do give to the community far more than they demand.
I see much the same thing here, but my taxes are not that forgiving. I think a good part of that is just living in NY in general.

I have 15 houses which are close enough I consider them to be neighbors. Of those 4 are occupied year-round including my own. One of the others was a seasonal couple who retired and became full time.

What I have seen here so far as being the biggest objection to the Tupper project is the objection to and dislike of the wealthy. If Paul Smith's wants to build a gigantic waterfront student center on Lower St. Regis which is less than 5 feet from the waters edge and then salt the sidewalks and have that runoff go in the lake every spring along with trash and god knows what else thas ok because Paul Smith's is a college and they teach some environmental programs. If Developer A wants to build a 4000 square foot home within the setback guidelines and sell it to wealthy potential seasonal resident B from downstate they are both exploiting the resources and should be stopped immediately and chastized for thier efforts. The environmental argument being used is clearly a red herring.

I hate to use my alma matter as an example of how the playing field isn't level, but they did choose to develop in the way they did so perhaps they should have done things differently if they didn't want to be used as an example. With 14,000 acres they had plenty of oppertunity to locate that huge building somewhere else besides on top of the lake. Why did nobody protest the Waterfront Center or the Weill Library? Clearly they have had negative impacts on water quality and have increased runoff and pollutants directly into Lower St. Regis. I think the answer is simple. It wouldn't be 'PC' to attack and enviornmental college regarding thier development whereas attacking business people and developers is a badge of honor for some.

Get over it people. It passed, its going to be built, and despite what some may think 600 or 800 grand for a house isn't a lot of money. I applaud the APA's efforts on this project and give kudos to all of the board members for the hard work they put into it. I also wish the residents of Tupper Lake the very best, I know they had been fighting for this for almost a decade and I am happy to see that they have gotten what they fought so long and hard for. May the next 50 years in Tupper be exponentially better than the last.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:45 AM   #46
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Why would you assume that because there are obvious issues with the Adirondack Club development that people would not also be against Paul Smith's college development?

I think it's a joke that an "environmental" school would build out that much on a lakefront like that in the park. As a matter of fact if I went there I'd hang my head in shame and maybe burn the degree for not opposing it.

The environmental concern argument is not invalid because you want to make the discussion about class warfare. Hating the rich now, hating the poor of Tupper Lake a minute ago, which is it??

It's got a majority APA approval, there is still a lot of water to pollute [wood to chop] before this project is completed.

Its a park that was created to preserve water and timber resources not a park created for economic development of the towns and vilalges. You can't find a job in a tiny town in the middle of paradise.And Need one..guess what..Move.

Hopefully somone goes pro-bono and sues the APA for their inconsistent decisions. Maybe right around construction time, that'd be fun to watch them try and cover up their roofless mansions for winter.

IS this good for economic development when the APA tries to regulate out of it's jurisdiction or am I seeing an inconsistency?:

http://pressrepublican.com/0100_news...-Farm-in-Essex
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Old 02-08-2012, 12:22 PM   #47
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Why would you assume that because there are obvious issues with the Adirondack Club development that people would not also be against Paul Smith's college development?

I think it's a joke that an "environmental" school would build out that much on a lakefront like that in the park. As a matter of fact if I went there I'd hang my head in shame and maybe burn the degree for not opposing it.

The environmental concern argument is not invalid because you want to make the discussion about class warfare. Hating the rich now, hating the poor of Tupper Lake a minute ago, which is it??

It's got a majority APA approval, there is still a lot of water to pollute [wood to chop] before this project is completed.

Its a park that was created to preserve water and timber resources not a park created for economic development of the towns and vilalges. You can't find a job in a tiny town in the middle of paradise.And Need one..guess what..Move.

Hopefully somone goes pro-bono and sues the APA for their inconsistent decisions. Maybe right around construction time, that'd be fun to watch them try and cover up their roofless mansions for winter.

IS this good for economic development when the APA tries to regulate out of it's jurisdiction or am I seeing an inconsistency?:

http://pressrepublican.com/0100_news...-Farm-in-Essex
I assume people aren't opposed to the Paul Smith's development because nobody objected to it. At least not publicly and certainly not on the scale of The Adirondack Club. The Paul Smith's projects are built now, nobody is going to be tearing them down, So why the disparity?

I'm not burning my degree, that would be stupid, I worked hard for it and it cost a lot of money. I'm not going to hang my head in shame either because I graduated from there. Thats just silly.

I didn't bring any type of class warfare into this discussion. I don't hate the rich or the poor. How can you hate folks based on the degree of success or lack thereof they have enjoyed in life? Forestdweller was the one casting aspersions on socio-political affiliations, not me.

I can see why the APA won't let you build a shed. If you walk in there with the obvious disdain you have for them why would they give you anything?

You can forget seeing a lawsuit result in any type of injunction. The filing deadline is fast approaching and no action has been taken. Aside from that there won't be a judge that would hear the case. It has no merits and would be sumarrily dismissed.
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Old 02-08-2012, 12:28 PM   #48
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The seasonal people MAY want modern conveniences. They may also want to get away from them too. They can just do it in a more elaborate/expensive home than the average person. The locals probably want more modern conveniences too but due to the economy of the area its not financially feasable for anyone to builld/provide these services.

I live in a beach resort area. Its a PITA in the summer. Development does have its drawbacks; large homes being built close to the dunes, encroachment of salt water on the aquifers necessitating the need for desalination plants, strain on municipal services in the summer(eg sewer). But there are also positives. My tax bill is lower, municpial services and schools are better because there is money to fund them, summer patronage of super markets and stores means we have them, have a choice, and prices are not overly outrageous. There is some job creation. Yes many of them are not well paying full time jobs with great benefits but people are employed in restaurants, hotels/motels, shops, marinas and as lifeguards, seaonal police and boat captains (deep sea fishing and whale watching tours). Although there are many huge mansions owned by rich people, Cape May county NJ is actually a poor county. The jobs created help people have a better quality of living than if the jobs were not there.

Do I want to see Tupper Lake turn into Lake Placid? No. But the area does need some type of boost.

The APA has rendered its decision. You can rant and rave all you want but at this point it probably won't make a difference. The time to take a stand and make your voice heard was when the studies and hearings were taking place. This project has been on slate for many years. It did not just happen.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:16 PM   #49
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I assume people aren't opposed to the Paul Smith's development because nobody objected to it. At least not publicly and certainly not on the scale of The Adirondack Club. The Paul Smith's projects are built now, nobody is going to be tearing them down, So why the disparity?

I'm not burning my degree, that would be stupid, I worked hard for it and it cost a lot of money. I'm not going to hang my head in shame either because I graduated from there. Thats just silly.

I didn't bring any type of class warfare into this discussion. I don't hate the rich or the poor. How can you hate folks based on the degree of success or lack thereof they have enjoyed in life? Forestdweller was the one casting aspersions on socio-political affiliations, not me.

I can see why the APA won't let you build a shed. If you walk in there with the obvious disdain you have for them why would they give you anything?

You can forget seeing a lawsuit result in any type of injunction. The filing deadline is fast approaching and no action has been taken. Aside from that there won't be a judge that would hear the case. It has no merits and would be sumarrily dismissed.
Give??

lol...Not give, an expectation that a government agency does their job within the scope of their jurisdiction is not asking something to be given. My shed permit was a problem becaues it didn't occupy the footprint of an existing outbuilding. I'll probably get it done some time but it'll just take a few years. Instead I repaired my old shed and saved the money of hiring a local to build me a new one in what was a better location for me. The property is about 50 acres and not on a lake or within 200 yards of a creek. I guess where you are is already like queens or the APA folks there don't care about some obscure regs or perhaps the regs are different in each location based on that previous zoning issue I mentioned.

"What I have seen here so far as being the biggest objection to the Tupper project is the objection to and dislike of the wealthy. "

I don't dislike the wealthy, except for maybe Warren Buffet.

There is a major difference between folks buying a million dollar house in Lake George than in the Tupper Lake area. Lake George is hours closer to the NY Metropolitan and therefore property values and demand for McMansions are much greater.

I wouldn't underestimate the organizations you define as radicals. Their primary concern is the environment and not economics, as your quote insinuates, so they are one of the only representational voices for people who want to see that area remain unspoiled.

You don't like the economic situation, move. You don't like that the environment is being forever changed against the spirit of the mandate of the agency that was created to monitor such things....move...oh wait that won't help.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:56 PM   #50
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You don't like the economic situation, move.
What about the fact that many of the people who "don't like the economic situation" simply cannot afford to move? For better or worse, they are stuck in Tupper Lake. What solution do you have for these folks?

I'm no fan of this project, because I think it will ultimately fail. However, I'm even less of a fan of the "too bad for the impoverished locals I want my wilderness" attitudes. A balance has to exist here. I love the wild country and the opportunities for recreation and solitude it provides, but I also recognize that I live with enough privilege to be able to enjoy it. Why should my voice carry more weight than those of the poorest Tupper Lakers, some of whom have been there for generations?
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:27 PM   #51
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What about the fact that many of the people who "don't like the economic situation" simply cannot afford to move? For better or worse, they are stuck in Tupper Lake. What solution do you have for these folks?

I'm no fan of this project, because I think it will ultimately fail. However, I'm even less of a fan of the "too bad for the impoverished locals I want my wilderness" attitudes. A balance has to exist here. I love the wild country and the opportunities for recreation and solitude it provides, but I also recognize that I live with enough privilege to be able to enjoy it. Why should my voice carry more weight than those of the poorest Tupper Lakers, some of whom have been there for generations?

Frhill,

The problem with this is that there is no end to it. I live on Long Island. Believe it or not, before 1950 this place was paradise. Fishing, hunting, farms, and proximity to NYC. Today, largely strip malls and housing developments. Pumpkin Qaad may be saying something nobody else wants to say, but I will second him. A generation ago, people would move to where there was work. If you don't have much, it doesn't cost much to move. What is needed is motivation and a little risk taking. Making a better life is not always easy, but always worth it. Another unpopular topic with some posters here is the term "eyesore". Well it is what it is. I don't see what being poor has to do with being a slob. If you can't get the garbage out of your own yard, I don't believe you are likely to seek gainful employment if any effort is required. There, I said it. Flame away.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:38 PM   #52
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I have no problem whatsoever with the rich except for the fact that they can find a way to get around the rules and regulations that are meant for all...and ordinary people are willing to assist them in doing so if they feel something is in it for them. And as far as your examples of development go I would be against them both. But what I personally dislike about the Tupper Lake development is that it will border land that will more than likely soon be wilderness. Probably an extension of a very large existing wilderness. I'd like to see the largest buffer possible there. I know certain development will happen within the blue line, but what happens within Lake George village is a LOT different than what happens in the forest east of Tupper Lake.
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:34 PM   #53
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You don't like the economic situation, move. You don't like that the environment is being forever changed against the spirit of the mandate of the agency that was created to monitor such things....move...oh wait that won't help.
Well said. And that is exactly my point. If you want modern conveniences and a better economy there are plenty of places outside the Adirondacks and national parks that you can go, but if you're somebody who lives in the rat race every day and you want a few places to go to get far away from humans and really immerse yourself in the natural world those places are becoming increasingly harder to find - thanks to the half of us who have a nothing is sacred, live / build / develop / drill anywhere and everywhere attitude and are constantly breaking out the "my rights" / "property rights" cards.
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:57 PM   #54
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I guess where you are is already like queens or the APA folks there don't care about some obscure regs or perhaps the regs are different in each location based on that previous zoning issue I mentioned.

There is a major difference between folks buying a million dollar house in Lake George than in the Tupper Lake area. Lake George is hours closer to the NY Metropolitan and therefore property values and demand for McMansions are much greater.

You don't like the economic situation, move.
Not quite like Queens, but we do get a fair amount of knocks about the level of development here. I could care less what other people think about it though. I can get in the car and go a half hour or 45 minutes and get just about any good or service that is commonly available anywhere else. You may not be aware that we also have the LGPC, another state chartered oversight organization that adds another layer of applications and permitting beyond what the APA and DEC demand already. So we actually have more regulation here than other places in the Park.

I don't think this location has much more demand for 'McMansions' as you call them than what any other town around here with water access has. I doubt though that McMansion is the proper term for a 2 million dollar home built with high quality materials on a 2 acre lakefront lot. Its 90 minutes to Brighton from here, so when you have come up the Northway for 4 hours already, whats another 90 minutes?

I doubt I will be moving anytime. I am fortunate enough to have what you might call 'deep pockets', so while it might be nice to see some more positive economic activity in the area, if it doesn't happen its not going to bankrupt me. I am more concerned with creating oppertunities for others in my area who deserve to have a good lifestyle but have been unable to because of a lack of oppertunity.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:09 PM   #55
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I doubt I will be moving anytime. I am fortunate enough to have what you might call 'deep pockets', so while it might be nice to see some more positive economic activity in the area, if it doesn't happen its not going to bankrupt me. I am more concerned with creating oppertunities for others in my area who deserve to have a good lifestyle but have been unable to because of a lack of oppertunity.[/QUOTE]



Commissionpoint,

I believe the dual goals of a robust economy driven by construction and a tourist economy driven by wilderness are incompatible. Pick one.

Glen
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:10 PM   #56
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Lake George village is a LOT different than what happens in the forest east of Tupper Lake.
LGV is like Placid Main Street, lots of shops, bars, restaurants, etc. Tourist businesses. However, The Village is a 4 block section and is not at all representative of the rest of the basin. I think a lot of people have been on Canada Street and assume the whole 32 mile lake is like that. Its not. We have a huge amount of Wild Forest designated lands as well. We also have a lot of other land which is privately held and zoned low intensity. So the two are not as different as you might think that they are.

We do realize here that a lot of folks want the oppertunity to recreate here in the summer months, and even some in the winter as well. We also do our best to contain all the highly commercial activities to that 4 block section of the Village. That area does provide income for a lot of the families that live close by, and I am sure if you asked any one of them they would say they are not interested in supporting development like that outside of the Village limits. For someone who lives in Hague or Hulets Landing the Village is some distant place that it takes an hour or more to drive to. For me who lives in Diamond Point, its about 10 or 15 minutes away depending on if its the 4th of July or the 4th of January. Don't make the mistake of thinking that Lake George Village is at all representative of the Lake George Park. (Yup, its a park within a park)
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:17 PM   #57
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Commissionpoint,

I believe the dual goals of a robust economy driven by construction and a tourist economy driven by wilderness are incompatible. Pick one.

Glen
Glen I think you are wrong there. Wilderness doesn't drive an economy. Its Wilderness. There are no shops, jobs, or other sources of economic activity in the wilderness. When you leave the wilderness though don't you go to a hotel or restaurant sometimes? I'd be willing to bet you do.

I'm not advocating a construction driven economy either. Just advocating appropriate development within the established framework of regulation. It seems some people have a hard time understanding what exactly that means and envision the sprawl you mentioned in Long Island in one of your earlier posts. There is quite a difference between the two.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:20 PM   #58
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Frhill,

The problem with this is that there is no end to it. I live on Long Island. Believe it or not, before 1950 this place was paradise. Fishing, hunting, farms, and proximity to NYC. Today, largely strip malls and housing developments. Pumpkin Qaad may be saying something nobody else wants to say, but I will second him. A generation ago, people would move to where there was work. If you don't have much, it doesn't cost much to move. What is needed is motivation and a little risk taking. Making a better life is not always easy, but always worth it. Another unpopular topic with some posters here is the term "eyesore". Well it is what it is. I don't see what being poor has to do with being a slob. If you can't get the garbage out of your own yard, I don't believe you are likely to seek gainful employment if any effort is required. There, I said it. Flame away.
Glen,

The fact is that Adirondack residents have been leaving their home towns to find work for decades now. Some are able to return - I'm one of these lucky folks - many others cannot. It's disingenuous to suggest that Adirondackers have been unwilling to move for the sake of economic opportunity. They have been doing so for a long time now, and the draining of communities is a major reason people in some communities are desperate for local development and growth.

Your comment that "if you don't have much, it doesn't cost much to move" is not entirely accurate. That might be true for a single person, but I argue things are different for a family of four. There are actually significant costs to moving as well. Securing an apartment usually requires first and last months' rent as well as a security. For the sake of argument let's say a $500 a month apartment requires $1500 up front to get into. That might not break the bank for you or me, but for someone living paycheck to paycheck at a low wage job, that can be an almost insurmountable obstacle. I agree that self motivation and risk taking are a crucial part of any success, but the fact is that some people just plain have have fewer opportunities and advantages than others. I think a lot of Tupper Lakers fit into this category.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think developments like the ACR are the answer either, but I wish people wouldn't direct so much ire at the locals for wanting a shot at a decent paying job where they live.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:30 PM   #59
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Glen,

The fact is that Adirondack residents have been leaving their home towns to find work for decades now. Some are able to return - I'm one of these lucky folks - many others cannot. It's disingenuous to suggest that Adirondackers have been unwilling to move for the sake of economic opportunity. They have been doing so for a long time now, and the draining of communities is a major reason people in some communities are desperate for local development and growth.

Your comment that "if you don't have much, it doesn't cost much to move" is not entirely accurate. That might be true for a single person, but I argue things are different for a family of four. There are actually significant costs to moving as well. Securing an apartment usually requires first and last months' rent as well as a security. For the sake of argument let's say a $500 a month apartment requires $1500 up front to get into. That might not break the bank for you or me, but for someone living paycheck to paycheck at a low wage job, that can be an almost insurmountable obstacle. I agree that self motivation and risk taking are a crucial part of any success, but the fact is that some people just plain have have fewer opportunities and advantages than others. I think a lot of Tupper Lakers fit into this category.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think developments like the ACR are the answer either, but I wish people wouldn't direct so much ire at the locals for wanting a shot at a decent paying job where they live.



Frhill,

I'm not happy that anyone is in that position. I know I speak as an outsider, but if my grandfather could leave his family in Europe and come here on a steamship, enlist in the military to become a citizen, fight in WWI back in Europe , then come back to the US who 4 years later allowed him to bring his family here so he could mine coal in Pennsylvania, surely someone could get in their car and drive 4 hours.

I am generally pretty center on most topics, and I do not long for the good old days of the depression, but really, we are not talking about going halfway round the world, different language, no prospects, etc. And that story was repeated for millions. If these folks aren't working, exactly what are they doing?
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:43 PM   #60
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That's the idea. It's meant to be a park to preserve natural resources. Therefore, the economic opprotunities should be limited to prevent population growth not the alternative.

http://apa.ny.gov/gis/FacsimileMap.html
I found the APA's land classification map. The classifications around lake George and up by Lake Placid clearly are more open for development. I'd hate to see the rest of the lakes in the park develop like that.

Call me selfish but I think that was the intention. Even our Canadian friends that come to the park should have a say, eh?
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