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Old 02-15-2008, 12:48 PM   #81
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I have a question to whomever has knowledge on the subject? I was once hunting with 3 friends, we were all in camo and went in different directions one day. While out, I was approached by a helicopter, black, with no markings. He seemed to pick me out with no problem even though I was motionless and again in camo. He hovered in front of me and let me know he saw me. When I arrived back at camp I found three stories being told by my friends with the exact same results. My question, I believe infra-red detection was used to find our body heat, why can't this be used to find lost hikers/hunters?..........
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:13 PM   #82
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I have a question to whomever has knowledge on the subject? I was once hunting with 3 friends, we were all in camo and went in different directions one day. While out, I was approached by a helicopter, black, with no markings. He seemed to pick me out with no problem even though I was motionless and again in camo. He hovered in front of me and let me know he saw me. When I arrived back at camp I found three stories being told by my friends with the exact same results. My question, I believe infra-red detection was used to find our body heat, why can't this be used to find lost hikers/hunters?..........
It can and is in different places.

One of the things about SAR is how it is implemented, the degree of training of the SAR people and the communication, coordination and CO-OPERATION among the agencies involved.

In most states, NY included, there is neither an overseeing agency nor any kind of standard. All too often various agencies are too concerned over "juristiction" and ploitics become involved. there is no "Master plan" for Search and recovery. Often there are several different groups who are vying for funding, and there is never enough for any one group to be able to have the equipment and training that is needed.

There are about six states that have SAR programs that are implemented uniformly and most of those programs have the latest technology available for SAR.

Understand that I am not disparaging ANY SAR groups anywhere, just relating the problems.

i am sure there are many right here on this forum that can relate being frustrated over juristictional issues and differences over the method of search and State, County and local clashes over "who's in charge".
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:33 PM   #83
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That speaks volumes about inter-agency cooperation. There seems to be a master plan for almost anything until jurisdictional lines cross into the proverbial gray areas! If they found all of us without a problem, it would seem the natural course to pursue, but then why utilize something that works!




Just an added thought, I always bring a roll of trail tape, a zip lock bag and a pen, in case I do get turned around. My thought is I could leave a message as to my line of travel and my trail could easily be picked up from the point I found myself in trouble. Fortunatly, I haven't gotten,[quite], that lost yet!

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Old 02-15-2008, 01:54 PM   #84
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I have a question to whomever has knowledge on the subject? I was once hunting with 3 friends, we were all in camo and went in different directions one day. While out, I was approached by a helicopter, black, with no markings. He seemed to pick me out with no problem even though I was motionless and again in camo. He hovered in front of me and let me know he saw me. When I arrived back at camp I found three stories being told by my friends with the exact same results. My question, I believe infra-red detection was used to find our body heat, why can't this be used to find lost hikers/hunters?..........
I can also say that retrofits to add IR imaging to helo's are very expensive...upwards of $100K per unit. That's hard money to find for many SAR units...
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:08 PM   #85
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I believe it, but in the realm of state spending, wouldn't that be a worth while expenditure as opposed to what they normally waste OUR money on?
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:16 PM   #86
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They'd probably find a way *not* to justify it.
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:18 PM   #87
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They'd probably find a way *not* to justify it.


Yep, bring your map and compass!!!!!!!
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:19 PM   #88
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I believe it, but in the realm of state spending, wouldn't that be a worth while expenditure as opposed to what they normally waste OUR money on?
To quote David Byrne - "Stop Making Sense".
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Old 02-15-2008, 02:24 PM   #89
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To quote David Byrne - "Stop Making Sense".


That says it all!!!!!
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:30 PM   #90
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I believe it, but in the realm of state spending, wouldn't that be a worth while expenditure as opposed to what they normally waste OUR money on?
Your first mistake is the assumption that "worth while" is a criteria for expenditures.

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Old 02-15-2008, 06:59 PM   #91
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As a veteran of many SAR searches, I can say that agency cooperation is better now than it used to be, at least for the past few searches I have been involved with. For the most part, the agencies we are talking about are the NYSDEC and the State Police. There are some awful stories from the past about which agency gets the first call that a person is missing, and that agency wanting to be first on the scene to claim the "credit for the quick and successful find". It's a feather (and cash) in the political hat that they go it alone. But I haven't seen much of that attitude in the past few years.

For a typical wildlands search, the DEC sets up an Incident Command Post and is in charge of the overall operation, and the State police join in. The possibility of criminal activity surrounding the missing person may change dynamics. Volunteer SAR organizations are typically not called in until after the first "rotation" (first agency shift or 24 hours).

Each agency will have their own separate planning meetings and different investigatory activities in the ICP, but the DEC will be in charge of the physical search itself. Either a DEC ranger or an experienced SAR volunteer trained in crew boss techniques will lead small groups into the field. As a crew boss myself I have had troopers in my own group during the past few searches. I'll say that troopers on the whole are not very woods experienced, but are nice folks nevertheless (just in case any are reading this).

Every extended search I've been on has had a State Police helicopter with an IR camera flying overhead almost continuously. They often will continue flying for several days, even if the victim is thought to be no longer generating any heat.
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:38 PM   #92
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I'm sure anyone who is involved in search and rescue and puts their own safety on line to help others is, and should be, greatly appreciated by all, I personally give them all the credit in the world. After seeing the ability of a helicopter with IR technology in locating each member of my group, wouldn't it be more effective to start a search with one while the missing person would still be in a given area and has not had time to wonder off? Just asking, sorry for getting off topic......
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:50 PM   #93
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After seeing the ability of a helicopter with IR technology in locating each member of my group, wouldn't it be more effective to start a search with one while the missing person would still be in a given area and has not had time to wonder off? Just asking, sorry for getting off topic......
They're usually out there as soon as they can. The same is true of the bloodhound and handler - I think there is only just the one I have ever seen at every search. It's a big state and it's not like there are a surplus of helicopters not doing anything else. On one recent search (with having been there a couple of days into the search) the chopper was called off to a higher priority emergency some distance away.
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:57 PM   #94
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They're usually out there as soon as they can. The same is true of the bloodhound and handler - I think there is only just the one I have ever seen at every search. It's a big state and it's not like there are a surplus of helicopters not doing anything else. On one recent search (with having been there a couple of days into the search) the chopper was called off to a higher priority emergency some distance away.

I guess again it all comes down to which way the money is allocated by the state? I would think this would be a worth while area to give a little increase.......

Last edited by DRIFTER; 02-15-2008 at 10:13 PM.. Reason: I know [worth while] second time, second mistake. I'll learn!
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Old 02-16-2008, 06:50 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ADK-DRIFTER View Post
I have a question to whomever has knowledge on the subject? I was once hunting with 3 friends, we were all in camo and went in different directions one day. While out, I was approached by a helicopter, black, with no markings. He seemed to pick me out with no problem even though I was motionless and again in camo. He hovered in front of me and let me know he saw me. When I arrived back at camp I found three stories being told by my friends with the exact same results. My question, I believe infra-red detection was used to find our body heat, why can't this be used to find lost hikers/hunters?..........
I had the same thing happen to me while hunting, except it was warthogs (A-10's ?) that were buzzing me! Very cool! I was the only human heat source within miles on a snowy background....
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:52 PM   #96
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Redhawk, can you please repost the article from 91?
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:12 PM   #97
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I've been really busy and I don't get to pop onto the forum much anymore, but I'm glad to see this thread is back. I'll read the article soon and thanks for posting Sky and Hawk.
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Hawk, I can't access the article. Can you repost please?
Better yet, check your inbox of email system, the article should be in there, I just sent it to you. If for some reason it didn't come through, please let me know and I will resend it to you. This is a better way, that way it doesn't disappear from accessing it from Forum Link. Didn't know there was a time limit on them to access them. Enjoy.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:28 PM   #98
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Redhawk, can you please repost the article from 91?
Download it again GG.

For some reason it wasn't bringing the jpg scans down. I converted them into a single pdf file and it works fine now.

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Old 02-16-2008, 11:50 PM   #99
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Still no dice for me, Hawk. Skyclimber, the email didn't come through. I'll get it sooner or later. lol.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:54 PM   #100
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Still no dice for me, Hawk. Skyclimber, the email didn't come through. I'll get it sooner or later. lol.
Right click on the link and "download link as"

or PM me your email addy and I'll attach the pdf and send it to you.

hawk
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