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Old 09-18-2018, 02:21 PM   #1
Hear the Footsteps
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Adirondack Council Survey Part II

I wasn't aware of Part I

This was reported on Page 3 today in the Saratogian (Saratoga Springs) as well as the sibling paper Troy Record. The Schenectady Gazette ran a front page story which rebroadcasted the DEC Announcement Yesterday.

The Saratogian Article titled "Survey: Hikers support parking limits, fees"
Link here. https://www.saratogian.com/news/surv...4f1859b75.html
Describes a 2017 200 person survey at Cascade Trailhead on Columbus Day.

A follow-up survey seems to be in progress and this is a link. https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3Y7J8D8

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Old 09-18-2018, 03:53 PM   #2
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The link to the story in the paper seems to be a dead end.
I also failed to find it during a cursory search of the Saratogian's website. Do you have a different link?
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:10 PM   #3
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That was a pointless survey
As for permit /reservations to hike? Just ridiculous
I decide last minute when and where i will be hiking i do not want be told i need a permit/reservation to hike
If i find a place to be crowded i go elsewhere or i visit that trail in the off season
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:40 PM   #4
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The title of the web page that leads to the survey is, "Overuse in the Adirondack High Peaks Region". That indicates to me they have an agenda. How does one define overuse?

I've started hiking around 9:30 on a Saturday when the Loj lot was full and cars were parked all along the Loj Road. I hiked over Algonquin then went down to Lake Colden, up Colden and down via Lake Arnold back to the Loj Rd. Other than seeing about 20 other people on Algonquin I was mostly all alone for the better part of the hike.

What if someone began beating the "insufficient infrastructure and inadequate funding" drum instead.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:43 PM   #5
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Link here:

https://www.saratogian.com/news/surv...4f1859b75.html

Of course surveys like this are self selected, and responses are steered.

The conclusion that hikers support fees is based on a question that said "...IF the fees are used for better management..." (which of course they would not be).

Also note that this was conducted at the "Cascade Trailhead" on Columbus Day weekend last year. This is not the "Cascade Trailhead", it the Mt. Van Hoevenberg parking lot. The Cascade Trailhead was closed on that weekend. So of course the results are wildly distorted and not representative of anything useful.

What a bunch of BS - but people who don't know any better will buy it...
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:44 PM   #6
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What if someone began beating the "insufficient infrastructure and inadequate funding" drum instead.
Thanks, Neil. Of course you know I have been beating that drum loudly for a couple years now - I need more drum-beaters to join me!
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:01 PM   #7
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I don't mind paying an entry fee. In fact, if that allows me to have a safe parking spot near a trailhead, then I'm all for it.

But a reservation system would suck for me. Planning a hike involves too many moving parts (weather, who's coming, physical condition, ...)

I'm not saying there is no overcrowding, but I have not really noticed this during hikes - only at the trailheads when trying to park. Are there more people than when I started hiking here 20 years ago? Sure. But everyone I meet is respectful of the environment and of others.

I could understand how local residents would be frustrated by half-assed parking jobs and cars going around looking for spots. Adding some parkings is the no-brainer solution to me (and maybe charge $10 like at the Garden & Loj). And if stewards/rangers find that a trail is dangerously eroded, they can close it down for a while.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:07 PM   #8
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Another Link to try. It redirects to SurveyMonkey

http://bit.ly/SurveyADK
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCD View Post
Link here:

https://www.saratogian.com/news/surv...4f1859b75.html

Of course surveys like this are self selected, and responses are steered.

The conclusion that hikers support fees is based on a question that said "...IF the fees are used for better management..." (which of course they would not be).

Thank you for the correct link.

And I agree, that is a very big "IF".

Not to mention that there are a multitude of opinions as to what exactly "better management" entails. An umbrella statement such as that keeps the question open to many, many interpretations. It seems to me like a sneaky way of getting more people to answer 'yes' without defining what 'yes' actually means.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:05 PM   #10
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When asked why they were climbing Cascade Mountain that day (Columbus Day weekend),
50 percent (said they) wanted the solitude of a wilderness hiker.












Matka Boska!
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Old 09-19-2018, 06:53 AM   #11
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When asked why they were climbing Cascade Mountain that day (Columbus Day weekend),
50 percent (said they) wanted the solitude of a wilderness hiker.

Matka Boska!
Apparently, we've forgotten what wilderness is!
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:58 AM   #12
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The fact that that many people in that group gave that answer confirms that the survey responses were "steered." What people actually want is shown by where they choose to go and what they choose to do. These survey results should be ignored.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Fournier View Post
I don't mind paying an entry fee. In fact, if that allows me to have a safe parking spot near a trailhead, then I'm all for it.

But a reservation system would suck for me. Planning a hike involves too many moving parts (weather, who's coming, physical condition, ...)
majority of my hiking is unplanned,
I keep a bag ready in the car, if I have 1 hr to spare or 1 day, or come across a trailhead I am curious about I may pull over and check it out,
would hate not to be able to hike because I don't have a reservation
1 of the things I love about NY over neighboring states is its open access to the outdoors and wide range of activities without a permit
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Old 09-19-2018, 12:47 PM   #14
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majority of my hiking is unplanned,
Sometimes I decide what to hike while driving south from Montreal. Either that or just a few days ahead, it's often weather dependent, which is influenced by safety.
Many will reserve, reserve, reserve knowing full well they will cancel, not show, swap their reservation(if possible). A lot of thinking would have to go into it to make it fool-proof and not game-able. A bureaucracy would be born out of it and have to be paid for.
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Old 09-19-2018, 01:00 PM   #15
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Plus, I may be wrong, but I don't see that a reservation system significantly stems any tide of overcrowding. It just guarantees that the hike will be crowded with people who have a reservation. Knowing that they had to reserve a spot in advance may even give them a bit of extra motivation to show up.

Look at somewhere like Half Dome in Yosemite with the cable hike. In order to use the trail you need a reservation/permit, but even so the hike remains crowded on a daily basis. It's crowded with those on the "list".

Last edited by IndLk_Brett; 09-19-2018 at 04:34 PM..
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Old 09-19-2018, 01:47 PM   #16
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Taking away parking and not investing in trail hardening and maintenance is just window dressing and not real stewardship.
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Old 09-19-2018, 04:48 PM   #17
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Back in '76 I hitchhiked across the country, carrying heavy pack, staying outdoors most nights. I got to the Grand Canyon and was informed that I couldn't hike down to the bottom, let alone camp, like I was planning to do ( I was young and naive). I pleaded my case to the ranger ( I just hitchhiked from NY!!!) so he said I could walk down but couldn't stay overnight. So I lugged my pack down 7 miles or so and walked back up another trail 9 miles or so. Bummer dude. Plus I decided to take a swim in the Colorado when I got down there and almost got swept away. I was young and stupid, I'm old now.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Sometimes I decide what to hike while driving south from Montreal. Either that or just a few days ahead, it's often weather dependent, which is influenced by safety.
Many will reserve, reserve, reserve knowing full well they will cancel, not show, swap their reservation(if possible). A lot of thinking would have to go into it to make it fool-proof and not game-able. A bureaucracy would be born out of it and have to be paid for.
This happens with the Lake George island camp sites. We came across someone this summer who admitted to booking a certain island site every weekend during the summer, and only showing up for the weekends the weather was nice. I'm sure they're not the only ones. It's a win-win for them.

The way I figure, the DEC had no issue with this, or incentive to do anything about it. They get the $, while the site gets used less and becomes less degraded.
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