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Old 11-19-2016, 01:28 PM   #1
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The latest on Eastern Wolves

Has been given the name Algonquin Wolf to avoid confusion with Eastern Coyotes.

Genetic purity of the species has been restored in areas without hunting. Like Gray Wolves hybridization occurs only when the pack structure is under human induced pressure.

The latest DNA evidence proves the Algonquin wolf is not a Gray Wolf nor is it a cross between Gray Wolves and Coyotes. It is a distinct species that evolved independently in North America long before Gray Wolves entered North America from Asia.

For those wishing to see wolves return to the ADK's established packs of pure Algonquin Wolves have taken up residence in protected areas between Algonquin and Adirondack Park. Unfortunately these are isolated and vulnerable pockets. Perhaps another reason for a greater Algonquin to Adirondack Wildlife Corridor.

The Algonquin Wolf lack the adaptability of Coyotes and Hybrids. They are forest dwellers and feed exclusively on beaver and whitetail deer. Coyotes and Hybrids eat everything from berries, grass, bugs to rodents and only occasionally deer. They are not as tolerant of hunting and trapping pressure. They form a social structure similar to Gray Wolves with smaller packs.
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Old 11-19-2016, 03:49 PM   #2
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Thanks for the info.
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Old 11-19-2016, 04:36 PM   #3
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All I could think of after reading that was how hard it must be to catch a beaver.
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:52 AM   #4
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Has been given the name Algonquin Wolf to avoid confusion with Eastern Coyotes.

Genetic purity of the species has been restored in areas without hunting. Like Gray Wolves hybridization occurs only when the pack structure is under human induced pressure.

The latest DNA evidence proves the Algonquin wolf is not a Gray Wolf nor is it a cross between Gray Wolves and Coyotes. It is a distinct species that evolved independently in North America long before Gray Wolves entered North America from Asia.

For those wishing to see wolves return to the ADK's established packs of pure Algonquin Wolves have taken up residence in protected areas between Algonquin and Adirondack Park. Unfortunately these are isolated and vulnerable pockets. Perhaps another reason for a greater Algonquin to Adirondack Wildlife Corridor.

The Algonquin Wolf lack the adaptability of Coyotes and Hybrids. They are forest dwellers and feed exclusively on beaver and whitetail deer. Coyotes and Hybrids eat everything from berries, grass, bugs to rodents and only occasionally deer. They are not as tolerant of hunting and trapping pressure. They form a social structure similar to Gray Wolves with smaller packs.

Not sure the Adirondacks is the place for them. The increasing amount of tourist, hikers etc would only lead to more of these incidents.

http://www.wolf.org/wow/canada/ontar...interactions1/
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:13 PM   #5
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All I could think of after reading that was how hard it must be to catch a beaver.
They can smell beaver underwater and where the beaver have frequented onshore. A beaver taking down a tree or saplings is especially vulnerable. They will wait beside those little canals beaver make and open spots beaver come ashore in winter.
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:25 PM   #6
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Not sure the Adirondacks is the place for them. The increasing amount of tourist, hikers etc would only lead to more of these incidents.

http://www.wolf.org/wow/canada/ontar...interactions1/
Yeah, most people don't want a wilderness that is wild. Insanity rules.
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Old 11-20-2016, 08:56 PM   #7
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Yeah, most people don't want a wilderness that is wild. Insanity rules.
Sarcasm aside, any introduction of wolves to the ADK's would likely have a tremendous ecological impact, especially on population #'s for certain native species like coyote and deer. Go read about what happened to the elk #'s in Yellowstone immediate following the wolf introduction there if you want some context on that issue.

IMHO, a natural migration of wolves back into the ADK's seems highly unlikely due to numerous obstacles, man-made and natural, between their current range in Canada and upstate NY. As well, the wolves still have plenty of growing room, so to speak, in Canada where there is plenty of pristine wolf-country...meaning there is lots of wilderness with little human presence. An artificial introduction to the ADK's would be required to get them here in the short term and such an introduction would require political buy-in from a lot of different groups and communities on a lot of different topics. There would have to be expectation management on hunting deer (which would see a serious decrease in #'s), residents and visitors would need a whole lot more education and awareness, and the state would need the leeway to develop and execute a sound management plan (which would no doubt include hunting and culling measures to ensure that the wolf #'s didn't get out of hand)....that last point is almost always a point of contention where ever wolves are. It has been an ongoing and bitter struggle for states out west to manage their native wolf populations, despite the fact that wolves in most of those areas have met the criteria for de-listing from the Endangered Species Act.

All in all, I'd say people shouldn't hold their breath over wolf re-introduction. I think cougar have a better chance of making it back into the ADK's, and that's saying a lot considering how they're no where near that stage of their natural expansion.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:20 AM   #8
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They can smell beaver underwater and where the beaver have frequented onshore. A beaver taking down a tree or saplings is especially vulnerable. They will wait beside those little canals beaver make and open spots beaver come ashore in winter.
Cool, thanks for that info.
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Old 11-21-2016, 08:34 AM   #9
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Sarcasm aside, any introduction of wolves to the ADK's would likely have a tremendous ecological impact, especially on population #'s for certain native species like coyote and deer. Go read about what happened to the elk #'s in Yellowstone immediate following the wolf introduction there if you want some context on that issue.

IMHO, a natural migration of wolves back into the ADK's seems highly unlikely due to numerous obstacles, man-made and natural, between their current range in Canada and upstate NY. As well, the wolves still have plenty of growing room, so to speak, in Canada where there is plenty of pristine wolf-country...meaning there is lots of wilderness with little human presence. An artificial introduction to the ADK's would be required to get them here in the short term and such an introduction would require political buy-in from a lot of different groups and communities on a lot of different topics. There would have to be expectation management on hunting deer (which would see a serious decrease in #'s), residents and visitors would need a whole lot more education and awareness, and the state would need the leeway to develop and execute a sound management plan (which would no doubt include hunting and culling measures to ensure that the wolf #'s didn't get out of hand)....that last point is almost always a point of contention where ever wolves are. It has been an ongoing and bitter struggle for states out west to manage their native wolf populations, despite the fact that wolves in most of those areas have met the criteria for de-listing from the Endangered Species Act.

All in all, I'd say people shouldn't hold their breath over wolf re-introduction. I think cougar have a better chance of making it back into the ADK's, and that's saying a lot considering how they're no where near that stage of their natural expansion.
Nothing at all like Yellowstone. Different wolf. If they weren't hunted on the A2A corridor its entirely possible they would be back in ADK Park. They have no choice but to drift south as Algonquin is shifting from whitetail to moose. Either that or adapt to preying on moose (larger packs). They are eating mostly beaver because of the lack of deer in the Park.
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:55 AM   #10
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Nothing at all like Yellowstone. Different wolf.
It might be a slightly different wolf from the one out west, but these 'eastern' wolves do breed with the ones from the west, so the differences might not be as pronounced as some like to think. And wolves will greatly affect the #'s prey species, especially deer, mostly because the deer haven't had to cope with apex predators for quite some time now. There are valid parallels to draw from the Yellowstone example...a wolf will act like a wolf.


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If they weren't hunted on the A2A corridor its entirely possible they would be back in ADK Park. They have no choice but to drift south as Algonquin is shifting from whitetail to moose. Either that or adapt to preying on moose (larger packs). They are eating mostly beaver because of the lack of deer in the Park.
Once again, I think we're seeing an example of someone trying to build a self-feeding narrative. Hunting isn't the reason wolves haven't expanded their range back into the ADK's. Wolves have been hunted in Canada and Alaska for quite some time now, and despite that their range was gradually expanded. Natural habitat (and with that food sources) will dictate where wolves naturally move to. There is a whole lot of civilization between their current range in Canada and the upstate NY. Why would a wolf want to deal with all that when it has plenty of wilderness in northern Ontario and Montreal filled with plenty of prey species?

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Old 11-21-2016, 10:13 AM   #11
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" Why would a wolf want to deal with all that when it has plenty of wilderness in northern Ontario and Montreal filled with plenty of prey species?"

Why did the Cougar leave the Dakotas and end up in Connecticut? Why do moose end up in highly populated areas? When you figure these answers out then we'll buy your book.
Until then your theories are the same as every other member of this forum: Very Common.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:29 AM   #12
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Why did the Cougar leave the Dakotas and end up in Connecticut?
Well there are plenty of examples of transient individuals of many different species travelling far outside their natural range. The OP's focus was on a wolves re-occupying the ADK's, which entails the establishment of a breeding population...that's not as simple as how far an individual can travel.

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Why do moose end up in highly populated areas?
Moose generally-speaking don't end up in highly populated areas. That's why despite the estimated 800 Moose that currently inhabit upstate NY, they are very rarely seen.

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When you figure these answers out then we'll buy your book.
Until then your theories are the same as every other member of this forum: Very Common.
My statements are opinions for sure, though I have no intention of writing a book. But alluding back to our previous discussion on cougar and coyote expansion, I prefer to base my opinion on what is probable rather than what is possible. Yes, it's possible for wolves to naturally move back into the ADK's, but given all of the natural and man-made obstacles in their way, and given how much wilderness there is in the northern parts of Ontario and Montreal (much of it with very little human presence), it just doesn't seem probable.
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:32 AM   #13
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This thread is interesting. Always good to see a wolf thread where the dialogue sticks mostly to the facts and hypotheses and where the personal attacks, innuendos and usual bs are kept to a minimum. That's about as rare as wolves are in Montreal.

According to a Quebec wildlife biologist to whom I e-mailed pics of some fresh wolf tracks, wolves range as far south as within 50 miles of Montreal.
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:38 AM   #14
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This population of Eastern Wolves is all that is left of the original wolf of the North Eastern US. Ironically it was not native to Alonquin Park. It ended up there as a last refuge from human persecution and as the whitetail migrated north. Algonquin is turning back into moose country. Deer do not over winter anymore in the Park.

Again the species either adapts, moves south with the whitetail or becomes completely swallowed up cross breeding with coyotes.

People have to decide is something unique like this worth preserving? Or is a Gray, Eastern or Hybrid all the same thing?
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Old 11-21-2016, 11:46 AM   #15
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" Why do moose end up in highly populated areas?
Brainworm for one reason.
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Old 11-21-2016, 12:00 PM   #16
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There are only a few hundred pure Eastern Wolves in Ontario where there has been extensive DNA research on them via Trent University. The numbers in Quebec are not known. There are Eastern Wolves in the deciduous forests of the Upper Ottawa and Gatineau. Gray Wolves in the rest and Hybrids south of the St. Lawrence.

As for wolves making it to The ADKs on there own?

Each time I descend out of the Park on 458 near St Regis Falls on a clear day I look north and see a blue line of hills (Montebello region of Quebec). There are packs of real wolves in those hills.
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:21 PM   #17
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"My statements are opinions for sure, though I have no intention of writing a book. But alluding back to our previous discussion on cougar and coyote expansion, I prefer to base my opinion on what is probable rather than what is possible. Yes, it's possible for wolves to naturally move back into the ADK's, but given all of the natural and man-made obstacles in their way, and given how much wilderness there is in the northern parts of Ontario and Montreal (much of it with very little human presence), it just doesn't seem probable."

This statement makes good sense to me. It is well written and succinct. Thank you.
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:27 PM   #18
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Brainworm for one reason.
Interesting.


http://nrri.umn.edu/moose/information/brainworm.html
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Old 11-22-2016, 02:34 AM   #19
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Thinking about buying this so I can have a place to ride my quad and maybe start a new club. Six square miles of forest to explore. Looks like a great place to raise Algonquin Wolves to release in the forest. Think I'll call Glen to see if he is interested. http://www.fountainsland.com/propertyDesc.aspx?Id=454
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:48 AM   #20
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This population of Eastern Wolves is all that is left of the original wolf of the North Eastern US. Ironically it was not native to Alonquin Park. It ended up there as a last refuge from human persecution and as the whitetail migrated north. Algonquin is turning back into moose country. Deer do not over winter anymore in the Park.

Again the species either adapts, moves south with the whitetail or becomes completely swallowed up cross breeding with coyotes.

People have to decide is something unique like this worth preserving? Or is a Gray, Eastern or Hybrid all the same thing?
Until recently, wasn't the eastern wolf considered a subspecies of the gray wolf?

I don't know why the US Fish and Wildlife Service ultimately decided to reclassify it as a separate species; their natural range overlaps with that of the gray wolf and they frequently breed together. Given time, the two species will likely continue to co-mingle and exchange their genes with one another.

Personally I don't see the need to treat them as separate species; the few differences there are in terms of size and appearance are very normal for species with regional variations (like cougar, black bear, brown bear, ect.).
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