In areas where snowmobiles can be used, (such as rails-trails) why can't ATV's be used? Both are motorized vehicles. Is $$$ the only reason?
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Originally posted by Old Rivers View PostIn areas where snowmobiles can be used, (such as rails-trails) why can't ATV's be used? Both are motorized vehicles. Is $$$ the only reason?
The reasons should be obvious. Although snowmobiles do their share of environmental and aesthetic damage, the argument is that the snow/ice cover limits the most egregious examples as one reason why snowmobiles are allowed and ATVs are not.
Despite ban, riders continue to abuse trails in the Forest Preserve, though the extent of the problem is debated. By Stephen Williams It’s a warm and sunny morning on the old dirt road between Harrisburg Lake and Wilcox Lake in Warren County, the sky above brilliant blue, the woods full of birdsong. A beautiful day…
The argument for increased intrusion of snowmobiles into wildlands is primarily based on trading the environment for locality economics. The same for ATVs. But both classes of riders have a number of participants with huge disregard for current laws and for the environment itself. On the road that I live on there are clearly posted road signs that absolutely forbid the use of ATVs. That doesn't stop them from "sneaking through" at a high rate of speed, even around blind corners and hills, often very dangerously occupying the center of the road. Many are unhelmeted and unlicensed, both youth and adults. I know, I know, a few doesn't represent all, but how many does it take before the damage is done? Such illegal activity clearly forms my opinion of not allowing expanded use."Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
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Originally posted by Old Rivers View PostIn areas where snowmobiles can be used, (such as rails-trails) why can't ATV's be used? Both are motorized vehicles. Is $$$ the only reason?
In the summer ATVs tear up and rut the trail base, destroy vegetation, while sleds generally are above the vegetation on a snow base.
I've seen pararel tracks in Canada with sleds and ATVs sharing but separate,usually on unplowed roads with a firm base,and only for a short distance.Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!
When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
Henry David Thoreau
CL50-#23
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As others have said, the snow cover tends to minimize snowmobile impacts. If you walk down any trail that is a designated snowmobile trail (and used as a hiking trail) in the summer, you'll find very little worn tread. Many snowmobile trails are in better shape even than hiking trails, with less impacts on the soil.
In contrast, ATV trails quickly become rutted, muddy messes. I've been on some trails in the Adirondacks that had been destroyed by ATV use.
Bicycles are banned for the same reason in Wilderness areas. While a bikes impact isn't as bad as an ATV, the mechanical advantage is still enough that bikes can cause significant impacts in the backcountry, so like snowmobiles, they are relegated to Wild Forest areas.
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Not trollong. I don't own an atv but have friends that use them to access back country hunting areas on logging roads and other private leased lands. When used responsibly they leave no trace but I am aware of damage irresponsible slobs can do on them. I wish a compromise could be reached with far left enviromental groups. Atv's can be used responsibly, not for "Riding", but for access and game removal during hunting season and not bother anyone on hiking trails.
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Originally posted by Old Rivers View PostNot trollong. I don't own an atv but have friends that use them to access back country hunting areas on logging roads and other private leased lands. When used responsibly they leave no trace but I am aware of damage irresponsible slobs can do on them. I wish a compromise could be reached with far left enviromental groups. Atv's can be used responsibly, not for "Riding", but for access and game removal during hunting season and not bother anyone on hiking trails.
Before ATV use could be permitted on a trail on forest preserve lands, that trail would have to undergo significant improvements itself, and receive regular maintenance, all of which would cause the trail to lose quite a bit of its wilderness character and become more like a road.
The intensity of maintenance would also be economically prohibitive- the state has a hard enough time funding maintenance for it's hiking trails. ATV trails would only be an increased burden on an infrastructure that is already stretched thin.
There are old logging roads on state land that could potentially be converted to ATV use... but many of these have been allowed to deteriorate significantly since the state acquired the land, so it would still be prohibitive to adapt them.
And yeah, some of it is politics. For the most part, the snowmobile community has done a much better job at working with the state rather than against it. Otter Lake in the Western Adirondacks is a great example of why ATVs aren't likely to ever be permitted on State Land in the Adirondacks, due to the actions of a few in the ATV community. For years, ATVs have repeatedly flaunted state land use regulations there. They head back there in large crowds of 10-15 vehicles, tear up the ground, and generally just trash the place, leaving a wake of discarded beer cans and fast good wrappers behind. Before there could be any chance of ATV use on state land at all, the ATV community would have to step up, organize, and begin to self-regulate itself far better than it has in the past.
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Originally posted by Old Rivers View PostNot trollong. I don't own an atv but have friends that use them to access back country hunting areas on logging roads and other private leased lands. When used responsibly they leave no trace but I am aware of damage irresponsible slobs can do on them. I wish a compromise could be reached with far left enviromental groups. Atv's can be used responsibly, not for "Riding", but for access and game removal during hunting season and not bother anyone on hiking trails."If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson
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Originally posted by Old Rivers View PostStill, hard pack roads, especially those that have been used for generations by loggers could be used by responsible atv riders especially if it were restricted to certain times of the year.
Old Rivers, That makes too much sense. Here's a link for responsible ATV use on trails.
Obviously not all areas are good or even acceptable for ATV use, but to say NO on all state forest land seems unfair. I personally don't own an ATV, but have several friends that do. I've never seen them mud bogging or ripping trails up. All they use them for is hauling people/gear in and out and dragging out deer. Definitely low impact use.
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I don't know where you come up with the "far Left environmental" I myself am pretty conservative as in conservation. I think thats just a insulting key word for any motorized user that doesn't agree with them
1 ATV creates as much noise and destruction as 50 Backpackers
As for rail trails I think any multi-use trail with Atvs is an ....ATV TRAIL.... almost to the exclusion of any other user
I agree with Dsetta Big Otter lake is getting hammered with ATV use
we used to go in as kids in the 60s and stay for a week and fish and hike
we usually hiked in from Thendara it was quiet and pristine, the road in along Otter creek got a bit of use and was rough as hell, but that helped keep the numbers down
But the state had many chances over the years to stem the problem but chose to look the other way. (Like not regulating the distance along the road between trails) Now its too late and now I notice that in the areas I hike the trail markers don't even say "foot trail" anymore, I think in anticipation of things to come
My .02Last edited by TRAILOGRE53; 03-13-2013, 01:53 AM.
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Originally posted by Old Rivers View PostI used the term,"Far left" to describe those groups that refuse to compromise or give an inch. ATV's seem to be the only use left out of "multi use". Lands are purchased by NYS taxpayers for all to use responsibly.
The power of a single ATV to do such damage is amplified many times once one has made its mark. Of course and unfortunately there are irresponsible hikers as well, but none with the damage potential of a rider on a machine inspired by some of the ATV sales commercials seen on TV.
That is why ATVs seem to be (and are) "left out".Last edited by Wldrns; 03-13-2013, 10:05 AM."Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman
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Originally posted by Old Rivers View PostI used the term,"Far left" to describe those groups that refuse to compromise or give an inch. ATV's seem to be the only use left out of "multi use". Lands are purchased by NYS taxpayers for all to use responsibly.
A key part of "using state lands responsibly" is to enjoy them for their intended purpose, not as a dirt track.
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Originally posted by Old Rivers View PostI used the term,"Far left" to describe those groups that refuse to compromise or give an inch. ATV's seem to be the only use left out of "multi use". Lands are purchased by NYS taxpayers for all to use responsibly.
FWIW, here is myopinion on ATV's. I just don't like them. Of course, I don't like snow mobiles or motorized boats either. Not when I'm in the back country. It's fine where they are needed to transport things over long distances in remote places or rough terrain.
HAving said thay, I am not "far left" or "Anti ATV. I believe that those who enjoy the ATV's should have places where they can enjoy them. And I believe that there are many places where they could be used and I think that we should all support their endeavors to open up appropriate places. On the other hand I think that the motorized crowd should also respect and upport those who want to go to places where there are o motorized vehicles.
Sometimes the motorized crowd can be their own worst enemies. There have been incidents where the ATV crowd has shown up en/mas at public hearings and been antagonistic and threatening (by demeanor) to the others attending the meeting. Many also give the appearance that they are not satisfied with having some places to ride them, but feel that they have a right under the constitution t be free to ride them every where with no regard for anyone else. Montana and Wyoming has thousands of miles of ATV and Snowmobile trails, yet they insist on all of Yellowstone be open to them as well.
So, that is the image that has been created in many peoples minds of ATV owners. Even if a minority that acts in a bad way, the stink \falls on the whle community. Partly because when there is destruction, other ATV owners won't step up and report the culprits and police themselves. And won't step up at pulic meetings when the "meeting Nazis" use their tactics and tell them to stop and that they don't represent the ATV community as a whole.
It might also help it the ATV community convince the manufacturers and dealers that advertisements showing the ATV's ripping up the terrain is not helping the cause.
So, there is what I see as the problem. If those things could be addressed, there might be more support for more ATV trails. As a caveat however, I would add tat I would never be in avor of ATV's in a wilderness area or wild forest. Even when it seems an area is not "being utilized" it' deceiving. Although there may not be any human activity, there will be an abundance of wildlife and plant activity which is one of the reasons we want to designate these areas as wild.
In the post aove, Bill makes he same argument that I have made on this forum before. No ones rights are being denied. Everyone has the right to use the wild forests and wilderness. They just cn't drive certain vehicles in there. Same applies to Yellowstone."If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson
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Lets not forget the noise. One can avoid the trails in an effort to avoid the visual mess, it is a lot harder to avoid that odious, preternatural cancer.
"Soon silence will have passed into legend. Man has turned his back on silence. Day after day he invents machines and devices that increase noise and distract humanity from the essence of life, contemplation, meditation."
Jean Arp"A culture is no better than its woods." W.H. Auden
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