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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bill I. View Post
    This has not been my observation. There are plenty of sites throughout the western Adirondacks where ATV riders have created new detours to bypass the sections they have rendered impassable.
    Originally posted by geogymn View Post
    I concur, why get off and move a tree limb when it is so much easier to ride around it? It is only natural.
    If the trail is destroyed/impassable, sure. My point was that ATVs don't instinctively avoid an inch or two of water like hikers do.

    I wasn't attempting to make any broad claims about overall impacts of ATVs and/or hikers, just pointing out a funny little intricacy of two differing types of outdoor recreation.

    Comment


    • #32
      I've seen the degradation of the original herd paths that make up the new South Shore section of the CL50 since it became a official trail.

      As herd paths ,the trails from Chair Rock Creek on the east, and the trail from Six Mile Creek from the west,both to the new cut trail over the hill, have gone downhill since hikers/backpackers have increased the number of footprints.

      Wider trails around mud is the most common problem.


      It is in our human nature,no matter how we try, to leave our TRACE.....

      Death by a thousand small cuts... and I admit I am part of the problem,as we all are.
      Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

      When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
      Henry David Thoreau

      CL50-#23

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by chairrock View Post
        I've seen the degradation of the original herd paths that make up the new South Shore section of the CL50 since it became a official trail.

        As herd paths ,the trails from Chair Rock Creek on the east, and the trail from Six Mile Creek from the west,both to the new cut trail over the hill, have gone downhill since hikers/backpackers have increased the number of footprints.
        Nothing like taking a little known herd path and turning it into an official, popular hiking trail. Just imagine if it was turned into an ATV trail.
        Do you have any 'before & after' photos of the destruction by any chance?
        Would be nice to see the contrast.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by DSettahr View Post
          If the trail is destroyed/impassable, sure. My point was that ATVs don't instinctively avoid an inch or two of water like hikers do.

          I wasn't attempting to make any broad claims about overall impacts of ATVs and/or hikers, just pointing out a funny little intricacy of two differing types of outdoor recreation.
          Well, no, you were claiming that ATVers and hikers behave differently and have different instincts, whereas all I see are differing sets of tolerances. We are all Homo sapiens and wired the same way; all that is different are the expectations.

          An ATV operator is riding through the mud, not walking through it, and therefore the "issue" is somewhat mitigated for him. I on the other hand have nothing between me and the mud than my boots and gaiters, and I would not walk through a deeply wet and muddy wallow for the same reason I wouldn't walk through a knee-deep creek with my boots on. So what a rider might see as "normal" I see as "degradation." It's like a hill on a road: when you drive up it in your car it doesn't seem that bad, but when you try to pedal a bike up it, it looks like Everest.

          In 2003 I came across two ATVs parked in a foot trail in the Watson's East Triangle Wild Forest. Without rehashing all the details, I had an interesting conversation with one of the riders. We were standing in a muddy area, not yet impassable, but I do recall there being more than one set of tracks because there was no obvious way through -- it was a sprawling patch of mud. In the Adirondacks you frequently encounter patches of ground that simply can't drain water very well, and this was one of them. He asked me where I saw ATV damage, and bewildered I gestured around us at what was an obvious scene of ATVs chewing up a sensitive area, with no boot prints to be seen. He said that all he saw was a trail. So where I saw damage, he saw business as usual. Same visual evidence, different interpretation.

          So yes, an ATV rider sees a small amount of mud as a non-issue because he can just power through it -- and he will probably see some amount of mud as par for the course, actually. But when the rider perceives that his ATV could get stuck or damaged by a mud wallow that has become too deep, then the same instinct that you and I possess will kick in for him as well. Therefore it's not that ATV riders have different instincts than the rest of the human race, just a higher tolerance for mud.

          And it is precisely that higher tolerance for mud that in my view makes ATVs incompatible with most other forms of backcountry recreation. My blood pressure starts to rise at even the slightest evidence of tire tracks in a foot trail; the situation has to become quite dire before an ATV rider takes notice.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Justin View Post
            Nothing like taking a little known herd path and turning it into an official, popular hiking trail. Just imagine if it was turned into an ATV trail.
            Do you have any 'before & after' photos of the destruction by any chance?
            Would be nice to see the contrast.
            I do not have any photos. I never thought it would be an issue.

            Has it degraded? Yes...

            The question to some would be how much...

            Has it turned into a major ecological disaster? Probably not by popular standards...whatever they are..


            Have I seen a downturn? yes...

            When only a dozen families use a trail for a weeks vacation, as opposed to the hundreds who have done the CL50... I do see more wear and tear on the trail...

            We, my wife and I, walk that trail a few times a week with our dogs,we are there from shortly after ice out tii water pipe problems in the fall... 5- 6 months...

            Is it a major problem, NO, but it is a death of a thousand cuts....


            We rarely run into hikers, we use the trail early in the morning.

            As I said, we are all part of the problem... or ....we are parasites on this planet....
            Be careful, don't spread invasive species!!

            When a dog runs at you,whistle for him.
            Henry David Thoreau

            CL50-#23

            Comment


            • #36
              Thanks Chairrock,
              Makes perfect sense to me.
              I too have seen the impact of a little used foot path that has been turned into a popular DEC marked hiking trail. Sometimes you're happy that the trail is a little easier to follow, sometimes you wish that it wasn't.
              I agree that humans leave their impact on the environment, which is fine by me. Machines make it much easier to do.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Justin View Post
                Thanks Chairrock,
                Makes perfect sense to me.
                I too have seen the impact of a little used foot path that has been turned into a popular DEC marked hiking trail. Sometimes you're happy that the trail is a little easier to follow, sometimes you wish that it wasn't.
                The next time a newbie asks for the location of remote backcountry trails that I might know about, remind me again why I don't publicly respond.
                "Now I see the secret of making the best person, it is to grow in the open air and to eat and sleep with the earth." -Walt Whitman

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bill I. View Post
                  Well, no, you were claiming that ATVers and hikers behave differently and have different instincts, whereas all I see are differing sets of tolerances. We are all Homo sapiens and wired the same way; all that is different are the expectations.

                  An ATV operator is riding through the mud, not walking through it, and therefore the "issue" is somewhat mitigated for him. I on the other hand have nothing between me and the mud than my boots and gaiters, and I would not walk through a deeply wet and muddy wallow for the same reason I wouldn't walk through a knee-deep creek with my boots on. So what a rider might see as "normal" I see as "degradation." It's like a hill on a road: when you drive up it in your car it doesn't seem that bad, but when you try to pedal a bike up it, it looks like Everest.

                  In 2003 I came across two ATVs parked in a foot trail in the Watson's East Triangle Wild Forest. Without rehashing all the details, I had an interesting conversation with one of the riders. We were standing in a muddy area, not yet impassable, but I do recall there being more than one set of tracks because there was no obvious way through -- it was a sprawling patch of mud. In the Adirondacks you frequently encounter patches of ground that simply can't drain water very well, and this was one of them. He asked me where I saw ATV damage, and bewildered I gestured around us at what was an obvious scene of ATVs chewing up a sensitive area, with no boot prints to be seen. He said that all he saw was a trail. So where I saw damage, he saw business as usual. Same visual evidence, different interpretation.

                  So yes, an ATV rider sees a small amount of mud as a non-issue because he can just power through it -- and he will probably see some amount of mud as par for the course, actually. But when the rider perceives that his ATV could get stuck or damaged by a mud wallow that has become too deep, then the same instinct that you and I possess will kick in for him as well. Therefore it's not that ATV riders have different instincts than the rest of the human race, just a higher tolerance for mud.

                  And it is precisely that higher tolerance for mud that in my view makes ATVs incompatible with most other forms of backcountry recreation. My blood pressure starts to rise at even the slightest evidence of tire tracks in a foot trail; the situation has to become quite dire before an ATV rider takes notice.
                  Yes, a lot of what governs how everyone acts in the woods, ATV riders or hikers alike, is "stress-coping." The basic instincts tend to be the same. But when you've got certain specific situations, users may react differently based on different factors- and one of those factors might be the exact type of recreation they are participating in.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Wldrns View Post
                    The next time a newbie asks for the location of remote backcountry trails that I might know about, remind me again why I don't publicly respond.
                    I get it.
                    I have seen impacts that may or may not have resulted directly from information that I've posted publicly on this forum.
                    I've since tried not to get too specific publicly, and keep the details to pm's.
                    I've always had the weakness of enjoying conversations with others about areas that I've visited, so sometimes its difficult for me not to respond to a question that I may be able to help out with. Have made some good hiking friends that way.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bill I. View Post
                      I am completely unsympathetic to this argument. Everyone has the legal right to use state lands, but that legal right is not extended to inanimate objects like ATVs. Therefore the ban on ATVs only applies to the machine, not the rider.
                      Bravo. Wonderfully stated.

                      This a position that many people agree with, and needs to be continually mentioned in these discussions.

                      Everyone CAN use state lands, but that does not mean that everyone can use them however the heck they want.

                      This is not some new, strange or rare concept either. This is something we encounter every day of our lives, everywhere we go. Everyone can use the streets in our towns, for example, but that doesn't mean you can do whatever the heck you want on those streets. Same idea applies to any public space, and most private spaces too!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Holdstrong View Post
                        Bravo. Wonderfully stated.

                        This a position that many people agree with, and needs to be continually mentioned in these discussions.

                        Everyone CAN use state lands, but that does not mean that everyone can use them however the heck they want.

                        This is not some new, strange or rare concept either. This is something we encounter every day of our lives, everywhere we go. Everyone can use the streets in our towns, for example, but that doesn't mean you can do whatever the heck you want on those streets. Same idea applies to any public space, and most private spaces too!
                        I think part of the problem is the manner in which ATVs are advertised by the manufacturers. A lot of ATV advertisements would lead you to believe 2 things:
                        1. If you own an ATV, it is your right to use it however you like, wherever you like.
                        2. If you aren't using your ATV to tear up the ground into a big muddy mess, then you aren't using it correctly.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Years ago I use to get together and camp out once a year with a few 'Jeep' guys.
                          Those guys were definitely always trying to out-do one another.
                          Not that every Jeep or ATV owner is this way, but these guys had absolutely no fear of getting stuck, or doing even more damage to the road & trail which had already been torn apart by excessive 4x4 use.
                          Later I asked them if anyone wanted to join me in a short hike across the creek, and up & over the hill that they had just tore up, and down the other side to a pond... and they all looked at me as if I was kidding and the so called leader of the group responded, "Are you serious, do you mean walk? I didn't even know there was a pond over there...Hey Johnny, I bet your Wrangler won't make it there!"
                          Last edited by Justin; 03-20-2013, 09:39 PM. Reason: added text

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DSettahr View Post
                            I think part of the problem is the manner in which ATVs are advertised by the manufacturers. A lot of ATV advertisements would lead you to believe 2 things:
                            1. If you own an ATV, it is your right to use it however you like, wherever you like.
                            2. If you aren't using your ATV to tear up the ground into a big muddy mess, then you aren't using it correctly.
                            Do people with motorboats get the same type of advertisements?

                            Motorboats are loud. Motorboats are often operated by intoxicated individuals. Motorboats often do not give right of way to un-powered craft. Motorboats often speed where they should not. Motorboats pollute the lakes. Motorboats disturb fish and wildlife. If the lakes are state land then they should be preserved like wild forest or wilderness.

                            I'm not advocating ATV's but why do we let so many lakes get over-run with motor boats? It seems a bit hypocritical that we should allow other technology to destroy the park and ban others?

                            There are hundreds of other lakes outside of the Adirondacks to destroy with motor boats, why can't we preserve those in the park?

                            Also the uniqueness of the Adirondacks allows people to own land in the park. So then it is OK for anyone that owns a chunk of land to destroy it how they see fit. I guess that is the freedom you get if you can afford to do such

                            If it is state land then there should be no motorized vehicles allowed no matter what level of damage they do, be it a boat, snowmobile or ATV.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by haderondah_wild View Post
                              Do people with motorboats get the same type of advertisements?

                              Motorboats are loud. Motorboats are often operated by intoxicated individuals. Motorboats often do not give right of way to un-powered craft. Motorboats often speed where they should not. Motorboats pollute the lakes. Motorboats disturb fish and wildlife. If the lakes are state land then they should be preserved like wild forest or wilderness.

                              I'm not advocating ATV's but why do we let so many lakes get over-run with motor boats? It seems a bit hypocritical that we should allow other technology to destroy the park and ban others?

                              There are hundreds of other lakes outside of the Adirondacks to destroy with motor boats, why can't we preserve those in the park?

                              Also the uniqueness of the Adirondacks allows people to own land in the park. So then it is OK for anyone that owns a chunk of land to destroy it how they see fit. I guess that is the freedom you get if you can afford to do such

                              If it is state land then there should be no motorized vehicles allowed no matter what level of damage they do, be it a boat, snowmobile or ATV.
                              Hmm. I've ben backpacking for over 60 years and I have yet to see a trail or river or lake torn up by a motorboat.

                              Don't misunderstand me, I prefer places where motors aren't allowed. But trying to compare motorboats and ATV's misses the point completely. It's like comparing A Teddy Bear to a Grizzly.
                              "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                So because the damage is not visible to a trail it isn't there?

                                I bet you I can fix trail erosion or clean up a few beer cans easier than I can clean an entire lake of oil pollution.

                                That Teddy bear you refer to might have been infected with small pox.

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