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Old 11-05-2016, 06:41 PM   #121
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Here is a quote from one of your listed resources.

"While coyotes are now widespread in New York, they only recently became established here. Interestingly, they did not enter from the west as one might expect, but instead passed through Canada north of the Great Lakes before turning south into northern New York. By the late 1930s and '40s, coyotes were established in Franklin County, and by the 1980s, coyotes were found throughout the state except in New York City and on Long Island".

The latter info contradicts your above statement. So much for "mountains of evidence".
You're a real fish out of water here Schultzie. The source you quoted doesn't contradict anything I've said. The DEC has a pretty good introductory article on coyotes: http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/9359.html

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There are two hypotheses to explain the presence of Eastern coyotes in New York. The first explanation is that coyotes were here before Europeans settled North America. The clearing of the forest for farms and homes forced coyotes to retreat to unsettled areas of the northeast. The return of forested habitats during the 20th century coincided with the return of the coyote.
The second and more widely accepted hypothesis is that Eastern coyotes are a relatively new species in New York. This explanation suggests that coyotes originally inhabited central North America and naturally extended their range throughout the continent in response to human changes to the land. Evidence indicates that coyotes reached New York and the Northeast in the early 1930s and 1940s, with coyote range expansion first reaching the state by passing north of the Great Lakes and into northern New York. Coyotes then spread rapidly across the state over the next 40-50
years.
"Coyote" is a Spanish interpretation of a Native American word which meant "trickster" or "prairie dog." In fact, it was the early Spanish settlers of the southwest and central America who first coined that term. As there isn't a whole lot of prairie in the eastern US, and as it was mostly people who were colonizing the southwest who created this term, it is a widely held theory that the coyote originated from that area of the US, or at least was more prevalent there than in other regions.

It is entirely plausible that coyotes came into NY from Canada, as the DEC article states. But how do you think coyotes got into Canada in the first place? And even the quote you provided says that the coyotes "passed through" Canada, not that they originated there.

The burden of proof with all of this is not with me. I'm simply pointing out what the biologists and historians have said. The burden of proof is on you; you're the one who thinks that coyotes were artificially introduced to NY via some secret program...I'm still waiting to see the evidence that inspired said theory.
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Old 11-05-2016, 10:16 PM   #122
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Old 11-05-2016, 10:20 PM   #123
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"You're a real fish out of water here Schultzie. The source you quoted doesn't contradict anything I've said. The DEC has a pretty good introductory article on coyotes:"

but the predominant theory (supported by many wildlife biologists) is that coyotes naturally migrated into the northeast from their historical range in the southwest... (Your quote)
""While coyotes are now widespread in New York, they only recently became established here. Interestingly, they did not enter from the west as one might expect, but instead passed through Canada north of the Great Lakes before turning south into northern New York.

A direct contradiction from your statement. You're starting to sound like Hillary now. How obvious your mistake is yet you continue to deny it.

So much for your mountain of evidence. Perhaps we just form our thought processes differently. You see, I am a "possibility thinker". You seem to be confined to proven theories which is fine but how is science to move forward with people who think like you? I too have science degrees but I am not limited to other peoples' research. You look for a smoking gun while I peruse the possibility of a different scenario. That's what this forum is based upon. Different opinions based on different experience.
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Old 11-05-2016, 10:30 PM   #124
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"You're a real fish out of water here Schultzie. The source you quoted doesn't contradict anything I've said. The DEC has a pretty good introductory article on coyotes:"

""While coyotes are now widespread in New York, they only recently became established here. Interestingly, they did not enter from the west as one might expect, but instead passed through Canada north of the Great Lakes before turning south into northern New York.

A direct contradiction from your statement. You're starting to sound like Hillary now. How obvious your mistake is yet you continue to deny it.
shultzz,
please give the date and source of the quote in your reply.
thanks,
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Old 11-05-2016, 10:48 PM   #125
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shultzz,
please give the date and source of the quote in your reply.
thanks,
Sure.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/pubs/97143.html From the June 2014 Conservationist
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Old 11-06-2016, 01:23 PM   #126
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Eastern Coyotes have a touch of Wolf In Them
http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib.../s_660215.html

"Most of the state's coyotes are wolf-coyote hybrids that can trace their lineage to animals that migrated south from Ontario and New York, he said. But there is a much smaller group of genetically distinct, more "pure" coyotes running around, too, in the counties on the extreme western edge of the state. They may have a bit of dog DNA, but otherwise are the offspring of coyotes moving east from places like Ohio, he added."

Perhaps this may explain the reason for the different color variations which I mentioned earlier which I have seen in PA and Ohio.
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Old 11-06-2016, 01:32 PM   #127
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"They may have a bit of dog DNA,"

Mr. Bounder,

Do we have a photo or video of dogs mating with coyotes? Of course not. Yet this author thinks it is a distinct possibility. Please note the word "possibility". So my theory of our "hybrid" coywolf having some assistance is still a possibility. Of course this conspiracy theory is not backed up with any video and neither is the cougar theory yet it is still a distinct possibility. Let us see whether the cougar sightings become more prolific.
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Old 11-06-2016, 09:46 PM   #128
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You guys seem so consumed with winning the argument, or finding miniscule reasons why the other is wrong, that you aren't seeing the forest from the trees (to steal an overused phrase). Seems to me the original point of contention here, well at least for this mini-coyote argument (in a thread originally about cougars, nonetheless) was whether or not there was an introduction of coyotes by the government. The sources quoted here show no such evidence, bottom line. Well publicized PBS documentary within the last few years shows a large number of hybrid canine animals in the northeast, various mixes of coyote, wolf, and dog. Prevailing theory by biologists is coyotes expanded west and north, and much of what is in the northeast actually crossed from canada, where many of them likely mated with wolves, as well as on their way through the states in areas that have wolves. This dispersal is very likely. We are seeing the beginning of this now with cougars starting to disperse. But they are only starting. A big reason for how slow this occurs is the rates at which canine families grow compared to cat families. Coyotes were able to do this within a much shorter time period, about 50 years, but probably a little longer. Again, this is the prevailing theory. Sscience can be wrong, so sure there are other possibilities. Just like with the theory of evolution, or the big bang theory, or the theory of continental drift. These are widely accepted theories with a whole lot of evidence to back it up. They are called theories because they arent 100% proven and science can still find different possible answers. So as with that, there are certainly other possibilities for cougars and coyotes, but right now without evidence other than internet post heresay, they are just conspiracy theories that sound unreasonable. Conspiracy theories are also theories, but they often have much less evidence to back it up, but by definition are hard to prove because someone (usually the govt) has a vested interest in keeping it secret. What vested interest would keep a coyote introduction from coming out is unknown. The deer hunting lobby pressure? Maybe, and hunters often have a loud strong voice in government issues, but really? To keep it that much of a secret? About coyotes? Plus hunters now have something else to hunt and trap. When it was wolves in Yellowstone, it was studied prepared debated etc. not done in secret overnight. The failed lynx introduction also was not secret. I could understand some reason for cover up with cougars, they have a scary perception with the general public. But like someone else mentioned, in todays day in age with wikileaks etc, i have to think this wouldnt be such a secret anymore. Can we stop with this off topic ridiculous back and forth argument please?
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Old 11-06-2016, 10:09 PM   #129
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This is a lost cause.

Alright Schultzie, you win.
Coyotes came into NY via some top secret, government breeding program.
And cougar are all over the place in the ADK's; all the people who've seen them just happened to not get any DNA samples or clear pictures.
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Old 11-06-2016, 11:29 PM   #130
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Producer,

A thread has to run its course. It has various stages to its life and when it stops being interesting reading it usually stops being. I wouldn't say we were arguing. Perhaps debating. I have lots of respect for Bounder45. I value his presence here on this forum. I was trying to make a point that there were other possibilities to the coyote query. Of course he is being sarcastic with his last post which is okay. He made some salient points and gave us some history of the coyote. His opinion has value and he may have a high percentage of being correct. (not with his sarcasm but with his documentation). And just for the record if there was a clandestine campaign to assist the population of the Yotes or for the big cats you would hardly find any documentation of it would you?
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Old 11-06-2016, 11:37 PM   #131
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Producer, I appreciate your post. It is logical and well written. Thanks for your interest.
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:12 AM   #132
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Producer,

A thread has to run its course.
Mission accomplished...

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And just for the record if there was a clandestine campaign to assist the population of the Yotes or for the big cats you would hardly find any documentation of it would you?
There would probably be something. An email that someone forgot to delete, some traces of discussion in meeting notes, a whistleblower's letter, memos that train park rangers on the standard response or talking points on the issue, money paid to a breeder or for land, or for possible tracking devices, or the data from said technology. A good conspiracy is obviously well covered up, but human error would lean toward uncovered evidence.
Coyotes, or the hybrids, are all over the place. They arent going anywhere. I read a study once, sorry no link but it was probably somewhere in this forum, that basically pointed out that trying to extirpate coyotes is futile, the more that are killed, the more youngsters take their place. At this point to keep up the conspiracy is futile. Whoever approved of the potential breeding program or introduction program wouldnt be in office anymore, or since the damage is way past done, backlash would be minimal. Would people be upset or feel misled? Sure but it wouldnt be on a level worth it to continue protecting the lie, or at the very least it would be real easy to dig up the evidence to leak out because the govt would be more cocky about it, so less protective of it.
Cougars are probably different in the public fear, so more reason to protect the lie. But more, much much more, evidence of the animals themselves would be there. So far, its all unsubstantiated stories or evidence that can be relatively easily disputed, like what we see when presented with pictures or prints, "its a bobcat or its a released pet," etc. There has been the one roadkill in CT, which was (maybe conveniently, maybe not) genetically proven/written off as transient and used to explain sitings for months leading up to the accident. Theres a thoroughly investigated deer kill or 2. There was scat 20 years ago in Mass. Some other minor confirmed evidence in the northeast. But even a well covered up introduction would have resulted in much more indisputable evidence of the animals themselves, not just the paperwork you mention. How is it that a hunter hasnt killed one by now? Whether for trophy, out of fear, or to just expose it to the world. Or a trapper accidentally caught one? They are solitary animals, but out west, in florida, or south of the border, if you really want to find one, and know how, its relatively easy. Biologists do it all the time, so do hunters.
The topic is interesting, but the more I learn about it, the less im convinced until i see more concrete evidence.
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Old 11-07-2016, 07:13 AM   #133
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Mission accomplished...



There would probably be something. An email that someone forgot to delete, some traces of discussion in meeting notes, a whistleblower's letter, memos that train park rangers on the standard response or talking points on the issue, money paid to a breeder or for land, or for possible tracking devices, or the data from said technology. A good conspiracy is obviously well covered up, but human error would lean toward uncovered evidence.
Coyotes, or the hybrids, are all over the place. They arent going anywhere. I read a study once, sorry no link but it was probably somewhere in this forum, that basically pointed out that trying to extirpate coyotes is futile, the more that are killed, the more youngsters take their place. At this point to keep up the conspiracy is futile. Whoever approved of the potential breeding program or introduction program wouldnt be in office anymore, or since the damage is way past done, backlash would be minimal. Would people be upset or feel misled? Sure but it wouldnt be on a level worth it to continue protecting the lie, or at the very least it would be real easy to dig up the evidence to leak out because the govt would be more cocky about it, so less protective of it.
Cougars are probably different in the public fear, so more reason to protect the lie. But more, much much more, evidence of the animals themselves would be there. So far, its all unsubstantiated stories or evidence that can be relatively easily disputed, like what we see when presented with pictures or prints, "its a bobcat or its a released pet," etc. There has been the one roadkill in CT, which was (maybe conveniently, maybe not) genetically proven/written off as transient and used to explain sitings for months leading up to the accident. Theres a thoroughly investigated deer kill or 2. There was scat 20 years ago in Mass. Some other minor confirmed evidence in the northeast. But even a well covered up introduction would have resulted in much more indisputable evidence of the animals themselves, not just the paperwork you mention. How is it that a hunter hasnt killed one by now? Whether for trophy, out of fear, or to just expose it to the world. Or a trapper accidentally caught one? They are solitary animals, but out west, in florida, or south of the border, if you really want to find one, and know how, its relatively easy. Biologists do it all the time, so do hunters.
The topic is interesting, but the more I learn about it, the less im convinced until i see more concrete evidence.
I thought you wanted this to die
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Old 11-07-2016, 11:34 AM   #134
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLNE7oZr_2E Roar!
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:55 PM   #135
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I thought you wanted this to die
I know, i got sucked right in!
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Old 11-07-2016, 03:17 PM   #136
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Your comment makes sense Jim. However people have been reporting sightings. And... who makes a trek to the truly wild and primitive locations when there is snow on the ground? You know how much snow can pile up. Unless you trek with snow shoes miles into our primitive areas that might hold big cats how would you see these tracks?
Schultzzie,
Off the top of my head, I know of several (if not more) individuals on this forum who ski, hike, hunt and climb in the interior ADK's all year round.
These are responsible folks who are not given to hysteria.
Jim
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Old 11-07-2016, 09:57 PM   #137
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Schultzzie,
Off the top of my head, I know of several (if not more) individuals on this forum who ski, hike, hunt and climb in the interior ADK's all year round.
These are responsible folks who are not given to hysteria.
Jim
Some places in the Dacks are quite inaccessible where the blowdowns and brush and rocks and boulders and downed trees are unless you are part of a tactical helicopter rescue team so don't tell me that people go there because even in good weather it is damn near impossible to get through it, over it, around it. That's where I would hide if I were a big cat. In Winter when there is 3-5 feet of snow on the ground you would have to be hysterical to go there. I am sure you are trying to make a point but I don't know what it is.
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Old 11-08-2016, 03:03 PM   #138
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Some places in the Dacks are quite inaccessible where the blowdowns and brush and rocks and boulders and downed trees are unless you are part of a tactical helicopter rescue team so don't tell me that people go there because even in good weather it is damn near impossible to get through it, over it, around it. That's where I would hide if I were a big cat. In Winter when there is 3-5 feet of snow on the ground you would have to be hysterical to go there. I am sure you are trying to make a point but I don't know what it is.
My point is that a person has to get out of his computer chair as many do on this forum.
Jim
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:50 AM   #139
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My point is that a person has to get out of his computer chair as many do on this forum.
Jim
True. But all you need nowadays in a smart phone.
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Old 11-09-2016, 03:59 PM   #140
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My point, exactly.
You can sit in your chair and call up, electronically, any data that you want to espouse.
Jim

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