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Old 01-28-2013, 11:55 AM   #341
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An article about the plight of those poor fracking Pennsylvanians. I feel their pain!

http://www.timesunion.com/news/artic...on-4227745.php
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:59 AM   #342
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An article about the plight of those poor fracking Pennsylvanians. I feel their pain!

http://www.timesunion.com/news/artic...on-4227745.php

Thats half the story. Here is the other half:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/97449702/100-Fracking-Victims

I am not against fracking in principle, but the industry has not been forthcoming and has a lot of clout. There is no shortage of NG and prices are low. They need to get this right, not just for us but for future generations.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:04 PM   #343
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Glen, Pumpkin said it well. Some farms are going under for a variety of reasons (large corporate farms, high taxes, continued poor economy, kids leaving the farm, etc. etc.).

What were they (the farms) doing pre-fracking? Some were (are) slowly dying. Having a gas well or two on their properties could help with some much needed income and might allow them to stay on the farm.

The alternative is to sell the farm...Are a couple wells vs. a housing complex or a commercial strip mall more environmentally damaging? I don't know, but once the land is covered with buildings and asphalt, it's hard to reclaim.
So the real point is not that the farms are being kept because of the fracking, but that they get to keep their property. I'd guess that once the rigs roll in with their retention ponds, heavy duty vehicles, etc, a 'small' farm won't have much land to left to farm...so they substitute the income from the gas. And quite frankly, based on what I've read, I would not want to be eating anything from a farm sharing land and water resources with a fracking well.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:09 PM   #344
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While far from universally agreed upon-it does seem like the landowners and gas companies want to move forward with unconventional drilling while the opposition is philisophically opposed. Sounds like many of the other disagreements on land use that we've had here.

Just to add to the farm convo, typically a farmer gets free or subsidized gas when they sign a drilling lease (that's how it is in PA and WV at least), that's a big cost reducer. If your competitors in WV, PA and Ohio are fracking and reducing input costs it makes the NY farm less competitive. I know that's definately true for the dairy guys.

However if it pollutes the water it won't matter that you were able to sell milk a nickel cheaper in the long run, thus the controversy.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:13 PM   #345
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So the real point is not that the farms are being kept because of the fracking, but that they get to keep their property. I'd guess that once the rigs roll in with their retention ponds, heavy duty vehicles, etc, a 'small' farm won't have much land to left to farm...so they substitute the income from the gas. And quite frankly, based on what I've read, I would not want to be eating anything from a farm sharing land and water resources with a fracking well.
I don't think it quite works that way, just because you lease say 100acres doesn't mean you're going to have a waste pool and main drilling pod on your property. Aside from what we read on these forums there are quite a few drilling regulations regarding springs, structures and the such.

I know a calf-cattle farmer that has leased his property in WVA and you would never know.

Restricting your diet to properties that don't utilize any of the natural resources would be tough, or probably impossible.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:17 PM   #346
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In my neck of the woods ,Yates County, we have a very large Mennonite population. Starting 25 years ago they migrated north from Penn. and established a thriving community.Their farms and associated support businesses are doing well.They bought up and continue to buy failing "English" farms.

The farms are not large corporate farms,most with less than 100 cows.
It is a whole different world . You can immediately and easily tell the difference between a "Dutch" farm and an "English" farm. One looks prosperous and picture post card neat, the other looks like a junk yard.(Of course not in all cases).

What are they doing differently? It is a FAMILY farm....supporting a family that does not embrace modern consumerism, hence they have less expenses. Their work ethic is very strong.

That and their community(church) cooperation.

Now to figure out if they are in favor of Fracking...
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:20 PM   #347
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So the real point is not that the farms are being kept because of the fracking, but that they get to keep their property. I'd guess that once the rigs roll in with their retention ponds, heavy duty vehicles, etc, a 'small' farm won't have much land to left to farm...so they substitute the income from the gas. And quite frankly, based on what I've read, I would not want to be eating anything from a farm sharing land and water resources with a fracking well.
And once the gas runs out and the checks stop coming, what do you have?
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:22 PM   #348
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And once the gas runs out and the checks stop coming, what do you have?
Muck
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:27 PM   #349
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Restricting your diet to properties that don't utilize any of the natural resources would be tough, or probably impossible.
Impossible primarily because, conveniently, there are currently no requirements or regulations to inform the consumer. I suspect they know that if it were known, they'd no longer be able to sell most, if not all, of what is produced.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:31 PM   #350
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Impossible primarily because, conveniently, there are currently no requirements or regulations to inform the consumer. I suspect they know that if it were known, they'd no longer be able to sell most, if not all, of what is produced.
There's probably worse things getting done to food, without consumer knowledge, than fracking a well on the property.

For what it's worth I know several farmers that know the health of their animals and would not risk their business if to frack a well their property were turned to muck and their animals sickened.

I know that's small consolation to those philisophically opposed to fracking.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:36 PM   #351
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New York should put a large tax on gas production ($1 or $2 per MMBTU) to ensure that the gas isn't fracked at low prices and use the proceeds to ensure clean water and to preserve other parts of the state pristinely.


Of course it'll end up being more money for the government to spend on entitlements so I am opposed to my own suggestion.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:38 PM   #352
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There's probably worse things getting done to food, without consumer knowledge, than fracking a well on the property.

For what it's worth I know several farmers that know the health of their animals and would not risk their business if to frack a well their property were turned to muck and their animals sickened.

I know that's small consolation to those philisophically opposed to fracking.

PQ,

For my part, as I stated in my earlier post, I am not philosophically opposed but feel we are in the dark until after the damage is done. If you look at the link I posted, a lot of the sickness/death was to livestock. I am sure a much larger percentage "appeared" normal and the product went to market. Toluene, benzene and all.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:46 PM   #353
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PQ,

For my part, as I stated in my earlier post, I am not philosophically opposed but feel we are in the dark until after the damage is done. If you look at the link I posted, a lot of the sickness/death was to livestock. I am sure a much larger percentage "appeared" normal and the product went to market. Toluene, benzene and all.
I wish it was from a reliable source. Unfortunately the extreme anti-crowd on this subject have gone bonkers (including the organization responsible for the data you posted). I wish there was some neutral source, thus is self-interest politics I guess.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:51 PM   #354
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I wish it was from a reliable source. Unfortunately the extreme anti-crowd on this subject have gone bonkers (including the organization responsible for the data you posted). I wish there was some neutral source, thus is self-interest politics I guess.
Exactly.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:52 PM   #355
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I wish it was from a reliable source. Unfortunately the extreme anti-crowd on this subject have gone bonkers (including the organization responsible for the data you posted). I wish there was some neutral source, thus is self-interest politics I guess.

That list was simply a compilation. If you look at each case there is a link to the original source. Surely they can't all be in on the farce?
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:56 PM   #356
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That list was simply a compilation. If you look at each case there is a link to the original source. Surely they can't all be in on the farce?
I did look at a few and that was my conclusion. Typically one can sue for damages but most of the time these do tend to be untrue allegations. But I would definately agree that there are dangers associated with this type of drilling however not the kind of dangers depicted in gasland and behind a lot of these frivilous lawsuits.

One concern I have is during the flooding we had (last year or the year before) would these waste pools get washed out before they could get loaded off site or "treated". I know there was an incident with chemicals getting into the Deleware this way and that is unacceptable.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:59 PM   #357
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That list was simply a compilation. If you look at each case there is a link to the original source. Surely they can't all be in on the farce?
I'm sure not all of them are a farce. Can you weed out the ones that you think might be real? Sorry, but I bet you can't and that's not a slam on you. It's just more murky water to try and look through.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:06 PM   #358
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I'm sure not all of them are a farce. Can you weed out the ones that you think might be real? Sorry, but I bet you can't and that's not a slam on you. It's just more murky water to try and look through.

St. Regis,

Agreed, so I say better safe than sorry. This is a case where regulations and enforcement along with bonds required for eventual cleanup are necessary. We are talking about adding pennies to the end user cost. Probably a net savings if it was done right and you could offset the legal costs and hush money paid. I own a business in a heavily regulated industry, so I am not some radical without real world experience. (I'm not suggesting you were labeling me as such).
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:08 PM   #359
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There's probably worse things getting done to food, without consumer knowledge, than fracking a well on the property.

For what it's worth I know several farmers that know the health of their animals and would not risk their business if to frack a well their property were turned to muck and their animals sickened.

I know that's small consolation to those philosophically opposed to fracking.
I'm not opposed to fracking, in general, but based on what we know, and more importantly what we don't know, I'm opposed to the method in which it is practiced today. If the industry wants the general public to be more supportive, then they need to be more open than they have been. And two things lead me to be concerned...one, their vigorous objection to being forced to 'tell all'. and two, their automatic labeling of those who disagree with them as "anti's".

You're right - our food supply in the US, and most industrialized nations, is a mess. I do what I can to avoid processed foods, and buy as local as I am able...it's not perfect, but it's what we have. And soon, when my son is out of high school, I will relocate to another country...
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:25 PM   #360
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If Indian Point didn't straddle the Hudson I would agree with your line of thinking.
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