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Old 10-15-2017, 08:18 PM   #41
baisleytom
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"In the case of the Alex Stevens incident, who pays for this type of incident? Family? It is tough to do but for all the resources used I feel that it has to be paid















"In the case of the Alex Stevens incident, who pays for this type of incident? Family? It is tough to do but for all the resources used I feel that it has to be paid "

It is already paid for. The state employee's are salaried. Aviation resources fly regardless of weather it is a "live" of training exercise. Overtime pay is normal operating policy and can be spent at a desk or in field (which is more desirable). Volunteer's sit in wait for the phone to ring.
None of that helps Mr. Stevens or his family, but he is the one who got into a jam for what ever reasons, and the responsibility for his actions are his own.












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Old 10-15-2017, 10:53 PM   #42
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Well, you know who paid those salaries. You and me.
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Old 10-16-2017, 01:14 PM   #43
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It is already paid for. The state employee's are salaried. Aviation resources fly regardless of weather it is a "live" of training exercise. Overtime pay is normal operating policy and can be spent at a desk or in field (which is more desirable). Volunteer's sit in wait for the phone to ring.


The point you're missing, which Golddragon also notes, is that those salaries, and operational funds come from our tax dollars. And more importantly, resources, manpower, and time spent looking for a lost hiker are being taken away from other efforts that we all want to see progress on (better Ranger patrol presence, better trail management, more wildlife surveys, ect.).
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Old 10-17-2017, 12:27 AM   #44
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Here is some of my thoughts on this subject.
I am amazed that we are able to hike and camp for free in this state as it is. No permits or filing a plan with the DEC or some State Agency.
A fee or Permit Charge, Rescue or what ever it would be called might keep those that would normally venture out to stop and think a little.
But for all those that dont sign a register there will be those that use the trails or park as they please.
I feel that paying for a rescue might deter those that sit down with a slight injury to keep walking and drive home or to their Health Care Provider rather than having a Ranger escort them to their car and then refuse further medical attention.
Even with a Satellite device like a SPOT, inReach one could start an SOS for any given reason. Not Life, Limb or Eye site as it were.
All the signs posted at trail heads and register boxes already have very minimal impact on any people bringing things into or leaving thing at any given place.
Ive seen people walking their dog in pajamas two or three miles into a hike. And they looked at me as if I was from outer space. I usually don't try to directly tell anyone they should think about where they are going or what they carry but, I mention sunset and sun rise times or weather to see if they have a reaction. Some times they see my small pack and think I am the one that's crazy. Those with no common sense will almost never change their ways unless they see something to change the way they think. If one goes out unprepared and calls the Ranger because they don't have a headlamp and cant make it down or out of the woods, they should pay say $1000 to compensate for the time and or resources used.
In the case of the Alex Stevens incident, who pays for this type of incident? Family? It is tough to do but for all the resources used I feel that it has to be paid for. And yes by the family of the ones who died because of the lack of a detailed plan given to any one.
I am happy to see all the ideas here about this subject. And I know all of our input can come up with a solution to make the back country safer for all that choose to use it.
Extending your logic and reasoning, you would propose that every driver who runs off the road because he or she wasn't paying attention, and was therefore negligent, be charged for the rescue too, right?

When a firehouse, police station, SAR, or ambulance is called, it is highly likely someone did something they shouldn't have or failed to do something they should have. Do you think each and every one of these people should be charged too?
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Old 10-17-2017, 04:17 AM   #45
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Extending your logic and reasoning, you would propose that every driver who runs off the road because he or she wasn't paying attention, and was therefore negligent, be charged for the rescue too, right?

When a firehouse, police station, SAR, or ambulance is called, it is highly likely someone did something they shouldn't have or failed to do something they should have. Do you think each and every one of these people should be charged too?
True, but when operating a motor vehicle there are consequences for your actions. Including loss of privileges and steep fines.
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:26 AM   #46
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Extending your logic and reasoning, you would propose that every driver who runs off the road because he or she wasn't paying attention, and was therefore negligent, be charged for the rescue too, right?

When a firehouse, police station, SAR, or ambulance is called, it is highly likely someone did something they shouldn't have or failed to do something they should have. Do you think each and every one of these people should be charged too?

There are consequences to everyone's actions.
Usually they are charged now, either by a traffic infraction sitation, or other vehicle violations. Also, when a ambulance service is called, you or your ins. Co. get billed, even from a volunteer Fire Dept.. Plus if there is property damage or they have collision coverage, they will most likely have their auto ins. Premium increased or maybe cancelled.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:21 AM   #47
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Extending your logic and reasoning,
When debating, it's possible to extend any logic and reasoning, no matter how sound, to ridiculous and absurd lengths. However, doing do doesn't necessarily mean the original logic was wrong or absurd.
What is important is to exercise judgement and be able to see when the reasoning no longer holds sound when the current situation differs from the original.
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Old 10-17-2017, 09:45 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Golddragon214 View Post
Here is some of my thoughts on this subject.
I am amazed that we are able to hike and camp for free in this state as it is. No permits or filing a plan with the DEC or some State Agency.
A fee or Permit Charge, Rescue or what ever it would be called might keep those that would normally venture out to stop and think a little.
But for all those that dont sign a register there will be those that use the trails or park as they please.
no thanks
have taken a few roads trips through out the US,
2 4000 mile road trips and last trip was 7000 miles
i visited many places to hike/camp/have lunch etc
after seeing lots of places with permits and fees required at different levels,
i am grateful for NY access to the outdoors
there are many places where you have to pay fees as much as $25 just to enter/park,
many places do not have trailheads with little restrictions like we have in NY
want to stop to check something out? have to find permit office, hope they are open, pay your fees get your permit, if its a popular big name place sorry you need to schedule your hike/lunch weeks in advance
want to hike on a holiday when offices are closed? nope cant do it
NY has its share of problems but open access with little restrictions is a very positive aspect of getting outdoors in NY
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:12 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by wiiawiwb View Post
Extending your logic and reasoning, you would propose that every driver who runs off the road because he or she wasn't paying attention, and was therefore negligent, be charged for the rescue too, right?

When a firehouse, police station, SAR, or ambulance is called, it is highly likely someone did something they shouldn't have or failed to do something they should have. Do you think each and every one of these people should be charged too?
Im willing to say most people would be ticketed for one reason or another also. Again those are my thoughts. Thank you for your thoughts.
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Old 10-20-2017, 03:06 PM   #50
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no thanks
have taken a few roads trips through out the US,
2 4000 mile road trips and last trip was 7000 miles
i visited many places to hike/camp/have lunch etc
after seeing lots of places with permits and fees required at different levels,
i am grateful for NY access to the outdoors
there are many places where you have to pay fees as much as $25 just to enter/park,
many places do not have trailheads with little restrictions like we have in NY
want to stop to check something out? have to find permit office, hope they are open, pay your fees get your permit, if its a popular big name place sorry you need to schedule your hike/lunch weeks in advance
want to hike on a holiday when offices are closed? nope cant do it
NY has its share of problems but open access with little restrictions is a very positive aspect of getting outdoors in NY
I agree with a lot of this. On a trip through some of the Great Lake states, I was very surprised that I had to pay entrance fees to get into some of their state parks and lands. I had assumed that I could just pull into a trailhead, get out and go, like I frequently do in the ADK's. I think out west, the National Forests and BLM lands have a similar open access policy, but a lot of other heavy traffic areas don't (to include some NY state parks like Letchworth).

So I definitely believe in keeping public access to state lands as unrestricted as possible. However, if people are going to act like idiots and require rescues because they forgot to bring a map and compass, I think some fines are warranted.
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Old 10-20-2017, 04:16 PM   #51
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I drove to the Yukon territory and back this past summer. For Canada's 150th birthday anniversary celebration this year, entry into all parks is free, I have a free tag hanging on my mirror so park attendants just waved me through. In the Adirondacks, if you simply want to hike a trailhead or paddle a lake accessible from a campground park, that is free if you tell the gate attendant of your intentions.
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:12 PM   #52
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In the Adirondacks, if you simply want to hike a trailhead or paddle a lake accessible from a campground park, that is free if you tell the gate attendant of your intentions.
Not sure if there are others but the Putnam Pond Campground gate charges a day-use fee to use the launch or the trailhead parking area during its open season.
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:46 PM   #53
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Rollins charges a day use fee as does Golden Beach. If you are staying at one campground your permit will be honored at other campgrounds for day use.
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Old 10-20-2017, 09:11 PM   #54
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I have used the trails accessible from the 8th Lake campground, and the boat launch for no charge, simply by asking. Trails from Lake Eaton too.
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Old 10-20-2017, 09:22 PM   #55
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I believe Indian Lake Islands & Lewey Lake also charge a day-use fee, and in my experience the going rate has only been $6, which I'll happily pay without question.
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Old 10-21-2017, 12:31 AM   #56
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Some of the replies here just got my blood pressure up a bit. If I don't vent I might explode or something so, my two cents.


"Amazed that we can hike or camp for free"???! Seriously? Get yourself a pedometer surgically installed, sign a contract to have your every movement scrutinized by somebody else and you can pay your lord and masters by the step.

As far as making the dead kid's family "pay for the SAR"… My god, not enough their kid is dead you want to slap them in the face with a giant invoice?

Once every six months or so one person out of thousands suffers the consequences of stupidity and next thing you know the crusaders are coming out of the woodwork looking to implement all kinds of rules and fees on everybody else to save the world. Personally, I'd like to be able to go for a walk in the woods without having to ask somebodies permission and fork over even more of my cash for the supposed privilege of using public lands that we all already pay for. It's getting so you can't sneeze anymore without ten people looking for cash out of you for it.

How about this, mind your own business, keep your own house in order and let everyone else worry about themselves. You can't legislate away stupidity & more babysitters just tends to degrade society into sheep. Some people are just going to do stupid things and need to be bailed out by others, it's a fact of life that just isn't going to change. If my neighbor is a dimwit and burns down his house cause he didn't have the capacity realize his new lazy boy shouldn't be right next to his wood burning stove, doesn't mean I need to be forced into taking classes and get a license to use my wood burning stove or forced into using a government sanctioned heating system. Call the fire dept, it's what they are there for, call him a dumbass the next time you see him and move on. If he dies in the fire, well, Darwin was on to something wasn't he.

Maybe we should try teaching common sense, reasoning and life skills in schools again and stop polluting our planet and food supply with things that make people intellectually feeble.

And yes, Cuomo's marketing campaigns to "improve the local economy" aren't helping anything in the Adirondacks except his developer friends profit margins. Got all kinds of people that just don't belong in the woods, heading out to their local outdoor boutique to get the right trendy clothing for that all important selfy they just can't wait to post on facebook and on their way to be "outdoorsy" in the most clueless way possible.
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Old 10-21-2017, 06:28 AM   #57
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Some of the replies here just got my blood pressure up a bit. If I don't vent I might explode or something so, my two cents.


"Amazed that we can hike or camp for free"???! Seriously? Get yourself a pedometer surgically installed, sign a contract to have your every movement scrutinized by somebody else and you can pay your lord and masters by the step.

As far as making the dead kid's family "pay for the SAR" My god, not enough their kid is dead you want to slap them in the face with a giant invoice?

Once every six months or so one person out of thousands suffers the consequences of stupidity and next thing you know the crusaders are coming out of the woodwork looking to implement all kinds of rules and fees on everybody else to save the world. Personally, I'd like to be able to go for a walk in the woods without having to ask somebodies permission and fork over even more of my cash for the supposed privilege of using public lands that we all already pay for. It's getting so you can't sneeze anymore without ten people looking for cash out of you for it.

How about this, mind your own business, keep your own house in order and let everyone else worry about themselves. You can't legislate away stupidity & more babysitters just tends to degrade society into sheep. Some people are just going to do stupid things and need to be bailed out by others, it's a fact of life that just isn't going to change. If my neighbor is a dimwit and burns down his house cause he didn't have the capacity realize his new lazy boy shouldn't be right next to his wood burning stove, doesn't mean I need to be forced into taking classes and get a license to use my wood burning stove or forced into using a government sanctioned heating system. Call the fire dept, it's what they are there for, call him a dumbass the next time you see him and move on. If he dies in the fire, well, Darwin was on to something wasn't he.

Maybe we should try teaching common sense, reasoning and life skills in schools again and stop polluting our planet and food supply with things that make people intellectually feeble.

And yes, Cuomo's marketing campaigns to "improve the local economy" aren't helping anything in the Adirondacks except his developer friends profit margins. Got all kinds of people that just don't belong in the woods, heading out to their local outdoor boutique to get the right trendy clothing for that all important selfy they just can't wait to post on facebook and on their way to be "outdoorsy" in the most clueless way possible.
LOL! Tell us how you really feel! Nice rant! Sincerely, nice rant!
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