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Old 10-17-2017, 08:14 PM   #21
Justin
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I'd be content to beat up the guy that turned hiking into a competitive sport.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:02 PM   #22
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Are you intimating that it was Chuck Norris who turned hiking into a competitive sport?
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:09 AM   #23
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Are you intimating that it was Chuck Norris who turned hiking into a competitive sport?
Well if there's such a thing as a hiking race I guess anything is possible.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:17 AM   #24
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Taras, I hear you. And I agree. But gosh I think this is small potatoes.

After all, the State has been HEAVILY promoting the Adirondacks for the last several years, in almost every way possible. (And I think the increase in visitors is great. My heart is with the well-being of the poor local business owners and workers, who rely on the tourist trade. The well-being of hard working people is more important to me than the well-being of some particular mud puddle that has gotten wider.)

So I agree with Saranac Lake that it is incumbent on the State, with "its breadth of funding sources," to make their investment in maintaining this area match the investment they have made in promoting this area.

I think beating up Saranac Lake is misdirected. You want a challenge? Go beat up Albany.
Well put.

I think Saranac Lake has done a fantastic job promoting itself as the family friendly hiking destination. There was a niche to be filled and they stepped right in.

They do a great job with their social media. My wife shared one of their posts and it's been liked by 20 people 4 hours away who I'm sure had never heard of Saranac Lake.

The State promotes the Adirondacks as a hiking destination, Saranac Lake promotes a specific subset as a destination. It's not unreasonable for Saranac Lake to expect the State to fulfill it's responsibilities with regards to trail maintenance. If their self promotion was so successful that state roads required maintenance, then clearly the state would take care of that.

I can appreciate the frustration of volunteer groups like the 46ers. They are stepping up and picking up the slack for the state. And I'm sure it can feel like state and municipal tourism campaigns without an investment in the resource are being run on the goodwill of the volunteers.

This is where whoever wrote the FB response got it wrong. Clearly they were talking to an ally who was passionate about the resource. We will be "pleased to pass along your observations" is the ultimate FU. Passive aggressive antagonism simply wasn't the tact to take. There was all kinds of common ground to be found, even if there was no agreement with the primary premise.

I can sympathize with their position while they are simply recording milestones people accomplish on state ground. The patches, the website, the bell. Everything is in Saranac Lake, taking advantage of the surrounding state resources. Well played.

But I agree with TB that the relay changes things. Placing the canisters with punches on each peak (presumably with state permission) means they are no longer sitting in Saranac Lake taking notes. They are gathering people and actively sending them into the resource rather than passively recording accomplishments.

It's not clear how the entry fees were used. $25/advance. $30/door. So 114 x $25 is a minimum $2,850. They've been very clear that the state is financially responsible for the resource so why are they charging an entry fee?

To collect an entry fee and not indicate that you are at least making a minimal investment back into the resource is a bad look from a PR perspective.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:09 AM   #25
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... They've been very clear that the state is financially responsible for the resource so why are they charging an entry fee?

To collect an entry fee and not indicate that you are at least making a minimal investment back into the resource is a bad look from a PR perspective.
This.

I can't set up shop on a trail and sell merchandise (like maps, headlamps, water bottles, patches, etc) on state land. There's a regulation against using State land "for private revenue or commercial purposes" 190.8.a.

However, I can make money by selling tickets to enter a race held on State land. Oh sure 190.8.ac says I can't ... but the village of Saranac Lake has demonstrated you can.
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:42 PM   #26
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Just curious...
Is there a fee to enter the "Black Fly Challenge" race, or the "90 Miler Adirondack Canoe Classic" race?
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:07 PM   #27
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Just curious...
Is there a fee to enter the "Black Fly Challenge" race, or the "90 Miler Adirondack Canoe Classic" race?
Don't know about the BFC, but certainly there is an entry fee for the 90-miler, which enjoys considerable support from the DEC (DEC personnel are stationed all along the route as safety observers) and from NY State Police (mainly for road crossing safety support and traffic control). The organizer pays a considerable sum to each of them and also for paddler's insurance.
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:14 PM   #28
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Well if there's such a thing as a hiking race I guess anything is possible.
I don't know anything about the race. I admit that. However I'll make an assumption it's not hiking it is trail running.

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Old 10-18-2017, 08:28 PM   #29
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And races are not the end of the world. Many people enjoy competition. For God's sake folks, get past the notion that competition is inherently evil. I was never very athletic, and certainly never won any races. But I had fun, and not winning doesn't make me cry.
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Old 10-18-2017, 09:13 PM   #30
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And races are not the end of the world. Many people enjoy competition. For God's sake folks, get past the notion that competition is inherently evil. I was never very athletic, and certainly never won any races. But I had fun, and not winning doesn't make me cry.
Agreed!
I don't believe that unofficial rock climbing herd paths marked with flagging tape is the end of the world either.
I was just curious about what are the differences between "technically illegal" and "acceptable" user groups, especially if a fee is required to join...?

Last edited by Justin; 10-18-2017 at 09:39 PM..
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:32 PM   #31
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Thanks, Justin. I too wonder about the technicalities. After a long career in Medical Device Quality, I tend to see the rules very much in black and white. But I am finding that with limited resources, enforcement variation often makes the rules gray. Politics makes them even more gray. I just want to see people have fun, and enjoy a balanced approach to the resource and the community.

(And I never use flagging tape...although others do. If I cannot find the cliff a second time, I don't deserve to be climbing there... )
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Old 10-26-2017, 12:52 AM   #32
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I think BillyGr got it right but it seems that his post was ignored. The group size limits for the High Peaks (8 for overnight use, 15 for day use) are hard and fast, and the regulations do not allow the DEC to issue permits for larger groups (outside of the Long Lake/Raquette River area) in the High Peaks, as is the case in other areas. The contestants would either be in violation of the limit on 15 for a day use group, and/or the requirement that associated groups maintain 1 mile of separation.

Since the 15 person limit on day use groups doesn't apply to the other mountains of the Saranac Six, the pertinent regulation would be the permit requirement for a contest with more than 20 people, which the DEC can issue (and likely did, from the sounds of things).

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