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Old 12-07-2012, 04:45 PM   #21
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That's why Kyoto was nonsense. It was just a cover story for wealth redistribution. If US had signed, we may as well just have written checks to India and China for $1T each.
Yeh and leading by example is a lost concept.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:57 PM   #22
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Its amazing that some contries still agree to participate in the UN. The USA and Canada included. Why would you want to involve yourself with an organization that gives equal voice to countries like Iran? I'd say that you shouldn't be able to belong to the UN if your country participates in outrageous human rights abuses like Iran does. That the rest of the world should shun you and not give you a voice until you conform to the standards the rest of civilization has accepted for the treatment of fellow human beings. We only legitimize thier beleifs and actions by allowing them to participate as equals at the UN. If the UN won't throw tyrants out, civilized nations should just withdraw in protest.

Well, thats my UN rant. I don't have a climate change rant. Some months it snows some months its hot out. Thats change right?
Guess by that reasoning, considering what the US did to the indigenous people that lived here, The citizens of the Phillipines when we "liberated" them, The Haitians when we "stabalized" their government, The deal that Teddy Roosevelt made with the Japanese as far as how they dealt with China, Korea, and the Phillpines, then the US should be excluded as well.As far as throwing tyrants out, what about a country that supports and aids tyrants? Remember that the US supported the Shah of Iran unil his ouster and then gave him asylum here and then aided and armed Saddam Hussain for years.

So before one starts throwing rocks, perhaps they should check the pile they are picking from.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:36 PM   #23
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Guess by that reasoning, considering what the US did to the indigenous people that lived here, The citizens of the Phillipines when we "liberated" them, The Haitians when we "stabalized" their government, The deal that Teddy Roosevelt made with the Japanese as far as how they dealt with China, Korea, and the Phillpines, then the US should be excluded as well.As far as throwing tyrants out, what about a country that supports and aids tyrants? Remember that the US supported the Shah of Iran unil his ouster and then gave him asylum here and then aided and armed Saddam Hussain for years.

So before one starts throwing rocks, perhaps they should check the pile they are picking from.
Sorry Hawk. I didn't mean to stir your anti US Gov't sentiments. I was just trying to say how I thought the UN and the Kyoto Protocol included, were a joke in my view.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:49 AM   #24
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Sorry Hawk. I didn't mean to stir your anti US Gov't sentiments. I was just trying to say how I thought the UN and the Kyoto Protocol included, were a joke in my view.
I'm not anti government. Just pointing out some truths that should be considered before pointing fingers. Americans are so quick to condemn others but willing to make excuses for their own behavior, "Manifest Destiny" (God told me it was OK to commit genocide), Democracy ("We'll make them democratic whether they want it or not"), And (It's for their own good").

Many are quick to argue that our government has no right to impose itself on us, yet it's perfectly reasonable for to impose itself on another country. We demanded a few years ago that Palestine have "Democratic Elections". They did and then we rejected whom they elected because in our governments view they were "terrorists". Funny isn't it that in our revolution, we were considered terrorists by the British.

Those are the points I am trying to make. Sorry for any thread jack.

BTW just for the record, I have 13 years of military service for this country, many of them combat tours so I think I can be considered a "patriot"
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:33 PM   #25
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That's why Kyoto was nonsense. It was just a cover story for wealth redistribution. If US had signed, we may as well just have written checks to India and China for $1T each.
In the case of China a $1T check would be a down payment on what we owe them.
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:53 PM   #26
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In the case of China a $1T check would be a down payment on what we owe them.
$1T would be almost all of it. (China owns almost $1.2T)

China is the largest foreign holder of our debt, but doesn't hold that much of the total debt. All foreign holders together amount to $5.5T.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...uments/mfh.txt
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:45 PM   #27
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Those are the points I am trying to make. Sorry for any thread jack.
How about we either get back to the topic at hand, which is something to do with temperature fluctuations over the past 10k years.
Ie.



Something I wonder about: how accurately do the changes shown in the graph reflect changes elsewhere on the planet. Could the warming trend be more significant in say, the agricultural breadbaskets of Canada, the US and across Eurasia.

As pointed out by Willie, sure it's fine to say climate change is the norm and has been ever since the planet formed. I imagine all those people living on soon to be submerged island states in the Pacific will be relieved to know that in, say, 10,000 years they can go back home.
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:31 PM   #28
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As pointed out by Willie, sure it's fine to say climate change is the norm and has been ever since the planet formed. I imagine all those people living on soon to be submerged island states in the Pacific will be relieved to know that in, say, 10,000 years they can go back home.
Well if necessity is truly the mother of invention, it stands to reason some of those folks will become good at boatbuilding, and then they will have a trade to fall back on once they find shore again.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:15 PM   #29
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Too bad this graph isn't vertically crosshatched. It would be interesting to see how long the up periods last judging by when it first breaks the green trendline on the upside to when it breaks it on the downside. Don't forget we are already about 150 years in to an up period.

Also amazing is the steepness of those climbs. That steepness indicates a large change in a very short time. WHY??? What caused those changes in the past. It certainly wasn't man. Volcanoes?
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:34 PM   #30
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What is the mean departure from the green line trend in any given spike? What about the average of all spikes? What is the mean duration of any given spike? What is the mean impact on the overall trend by any given spike? Of all spikes? By how much?
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:00 PM   #31
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What is the mean departure from the green line trend in any given spike? What about the average of all spikes? What is the mean duration of any given spike? What is the mean impact on the overall trend by any given spike? Of all spikes? By how much?
You would have to write the author to find that out or do your own estimative extrapolations.

It was at the medieval warming that the Norse were able to settle in Greenland. They lasted about 500 years before the climactic tables turned against them and they died out. Had they taken a few pages from the Eskimos' way of life would have continued to thrive but that's another story.)

500 years is about the current length of our European based civilization here in N. America. Could climate change bring about an end to our culture or do we have the resources to deal with it?

I think much of it will depend on how we deal with water scarcities. Canada could turn some nice coin by pipelining it from the Shield to the US midwest, which would be motivated to develop computerized underground tube irrigation systems such as are now being used in Israel. Miles and miles of tiny little tubes with holes in them.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:01 PM   #32
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I think that David Lappi raised a good point. Its not heat but cold that we should fear.

"Warming is not a killer, but global cooling is. It would only take a few years of global crop failures from cold weather to put populations at serious risk."

I found this statement curious too.

"Both the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets are thickening: Leave anything on the ice, and it gets buried pretty fast (for example: the US South Pole Base was recently reconstructed because the old base was being crushed by snow and ice, and WWII planes lost on Greenland’s southeast coast, were covered by 264 feet of ice in 50 years: see the image below). This is not rocket science. Sure, the sea-level edges are retreating (that is why we call them the ablation zones of a glacier), but they represent a minute portion of the continent-scale ice mass."

Maybe sea rise will not be as great as predicted. Some of the dire predictions call for Greenland to be ice free but according to Lappi its not happening.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:09 PM   #33
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Warming will increase drought scenarios which would also destroy agriculture. We also have the issue of acidification of the oceans to which the consequences are far more complex and destructive to our global ecosystem. Warming IS a serious threat make no bones about it.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:23 PM   #34
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I rather think that its not so much the heat, but the humility.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:29 PM   #35
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Canada could turn some nice coin by pipelining it from the Shield to the US midwest, which would be motivated to develop computerized underground tube irrigation systems such as are now being used in Israel. Miles and miles of tiny little tubes with holes in them.
Talking in those terms we have no real shortage of fresh water here in the USA. The majority of the Great Lakes lie within US borders. If Alberta warmed up a bit perhaps it would be the US who would be doing the selling.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:59 AM   #36
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Warming will increase drought scenarios which would also destroy agriculture. We also have the issue of acidification of the oceans to which the consequences are far more complex and destructive to our global ecosystem. Warming IS a serious threat make no bones about it.
An extreme of anything will have consequences. What we have to remember is that we are talking average Global temperatures. Not everyone will be going up or down at the same rate. Under each scenario there will be winners and losers.
Asking what we do about it seems strange to me. You do what countless other cultures do, Move or be a historical artifact. Since I think warming is the near term threat you buildup dunes and sand bars against future storm surges and add
buffer zones between the sea and the houses. I'm against the Gov't telling anyone they can't build on the ocean but they should make them understand that they do so at their own risk.

I remember a cartoon I once saw. An Eskimo is fishing near the sea and a Glacier is 100 yards away. An enviromentalist is screaming at the Eskimo to look out and run for your life because its moving at a few inches an hour.

The point is that whether its waters rising or glaciers scouring you have plenty of time to pack your bags and move.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:11 AM   #37
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Sure one can move. But I think you are thinking in short term, minor changes like sea level and average temp of an area changing its growing season. The dire consequences I speak of will be catastrophic to the global system, not immediately and not very quickly. But over time the planet will not be able to support us (humans). Not at our current numbers and certainly not at the current rate of growth. For me the real point is whether this is just a cycle which will happen to us regardless, in which case our civilization and possibly species are doomed (like others before us) or whether this is man made. I trust the majority of scientists, and I trust my own knowledge of how man has significantly affected the system already (acid rain is just one significant example). But even if I didn't, I invoke a version of Pascal's Wager when it comes to this. If we assume it isn't man made and we are wrong vs if we assume it is man made and we are wrong what are the consequences of our actions based on these assumptions? Now that is a great thought experiment to go through. IMO it requires significant quantities of good people and good beer to truly be enjoyed.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:45 AM   #38
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Talking in those terms we have no real shortage of fresh water here in the USA. The majority of the Great Lakes lie within US borders. If Alberta warmed up a bit perhaps it would be the US who would be doing the selling.
The Great lakes are dropping already and threatening shipping via the St Laurent Seaway. Current rates of water withdrawals and climate change are two reasons. Isostatic rebound accounts for another. (not much anyone can do about that)

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Why the Lakes are slowly getting less Great
The largest part of the drop in the lakes’ water levels is attributed to climate change: shorter winters and dry, hot summers meant more water evaporating from the lakes than was going back in through precipitation.
As for aquifer depletion, one tends to think of California and the mid west but this came as a surprise:
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From the USGSChicago-Milwaukee area - Chicago has been using groundwater since at least 1864 and groundwater has been the sole source of drinking water for about 8.2 million people in the Great Lakes watershed. This long-term pumping has lowered groundwater levels by as much as 900 feet.
Next time I come down for a hike I'll bring you a jug of H2O, cheap.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:24 AM   #39
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Here is a link to an article about sea levels. The study shows a correlation between temperature and sea level. They note that the last large increase was during the medieval warming period. Also sea levels dropped during the Little ice age before rising again since the 1800's.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_882654.html

This correlates well with the graph I've display. My question, and its a $64,000 question, is
why doesn't the graph of 1,000 of temperatures shown by Al Gore show a medieval warm period warmer than today? Here is the graph. Who is right?

http://web.ncf.ca/jim/ref/inconvenie...l/00_20_53.jpg
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:18 AM   #40
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I'll take the $64k. There are many possible answers. The most obvious can be found in the title of the graphs.
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