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Old 12-11-2012, 11:15 AM   #61
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Those who hypothesize that global warming is occurring base their hypothesis on studies published in peer reviewed scientific journals. Those who deny the hypothesis rely on petroleum industry lobbyists and newspaper and Yahoo articles.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:48 AM   #62
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A bit harsh Neil, allow me to rephrase.

Fear mongers that claim the climate change experienced over the last 100 years is caused in fact by human activity. Their research is reviewed by their crony coworkers that have a vested interest in proving this research correct and go through great lengths to obfiscate their data and analysis because the general public is too stupid to ask the question "How did you come to that conclusion?"

Other folks look at the historical warming and cooling of the planet and note that climate changes also occur naturally over the course of time and that you can sample a very short period an incorrectly hypothesize an extreme position that is all to readily accepted by the masses of internet readers.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:18 PM   #63
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Does anyone remember the 1970's? Remember the decade worth of "THE NEXT ICE AGE IS COMING!!!" in the media? Guess what..... No glaciers in Neils front yard yet.

The 80's pass with bad hair and worse clothing..........

Welcome to the 1990's. The oceans are now going to rise because we got it wrong. The glaciers aren't growing exponentially, they are shrinking exponentially. Please pardon the oversight on our part but please do work yourself into a frenzy about it.

Have you noticed in the last couple years the constant daily barrage of global warming stories in the media has drastically declined? Just like it did in the 1970's when the 'ice age science' fell apart and went away. Remember, the only time the media backs away from a good story is when there is so little there that they can't write news and have to just editorialize the topic for as long as people are willing to listen. Kinda like this thread.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:23 PM   #64
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Does anyone remember the 1970's? Remember the decade worth of "THE NEXT ICE AGE IS COMING!!!" in the media? Guess what..... No glaciers in Neils front yard yet.

The 80's pass with bad hair and worse clothing..........

Welcome to the 1990's. The oceans are now going to rise because we got it wrong. The glaciers aren't growing exponentially, they are shrinking exponentially. Please pardon the oversight on our part but please do work yourself into a frenzy about it.

Have you noticed in the last couple years the constant daily barrage of global warming stories in the media has drastically declined? Just like it did in the 1970's when the 'ice age science' fell apart and went away. Remember, the only time the media backs away from a good story is when there is so little there that they can't write news and have to just editorialize the topic for as long as people are willing to listen. Kinda like this thread.
Is this all you do all day Mike, scan forums and write responces... ive got carpotunnel just reading you post count go up....
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:31 PM   #65
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Its why you don't see me all summer. I'm just now getting caught up from June. Good thing I've got absolutely nothing to do right? I was thinking about hiking on Friday though, so watch out for a TR or something useful at some point soon.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
A bit harsh Neil, allow me to rephrase.

Fear mongers that claim the climate change experienced over the last 100 years is caused in fact by human activity. Their research is reviewed by their crony coworkers that have a vested interest in proving this research correct and go through great lengths to obfiscate their data and analysis because the general public is too stupid to ask the question "How did you come to that conclusion?"

Other folks look at the historical warming and cooling of the planet and note that climate changes also occur naturally over the course of time and that you can sample a very short period an incorrectly hypothesize an extreme position that is all to readily accepted by the masses of internet readers.

This sounds like the acid rain denials in the 80's. Scientists, who were pretty much of one mind on the topic, were labeled "Fear Mongers" by people on the payroll of the utility companies (and the Reagan era EPA). Name calling is very in these days. Now that there is no debate on the fact of acid rain these days, it only took the death of several thousand lakes and ponds in the meantime.

I am no climate scientist, but what if you are wrong? Do you really believe that human industrial activity, regardless of its level, has no ability to impact the atmosphere?
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:39 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Commissionpoint View Post
Does anyone remember the 1970's? Remember the decade worth of "THE NEXT ICE AGE IS COMING!!!" in the media? Guess what..... No glaciers in Neils front yard yet.

The 80's pass with bad hair and worse clothing..........

Welcome to the 1990's. The oceans are now going to rise because we got it wrong. The glaciers aren't growing exponentially, they are shrinking exponentially. Please pardon the oversight on our part but please do work yourself into a frenzy about it.

Have you noticed in the last couple years the constant daily barrage of global warming stories in the media has drastically declined? Just like it did in the 1970's when the 'ice age science' fell apart and went away. Remember, the only time the media backs away from a good story is when there is so little there that they can't write news and have to just editorialize the topic for as long as people are willing to listen. Kinda like this thread.
An excellent flashback...
Looking forward to the next decade of worldly issues
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:40 PM   #68
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Those who hypothesize that global warming is occurring base their hypothesis on studies published in peer reviewed scientific journals. Those who deny the hypothesis rely on petroleum industry lobbyists and newspaper and Yahoo articles.
Oh, I see......... it's the "good guys" vs. the "bad guys". That has to be one of the most simplistic statements yet on the issue. Although I notice you didn't say man-made GW.

In the interest of at least demonstrating a modicum of fairness, you should have mentioned the billions of $$ in grant money that goes to man-made GW friendly scientists. The gov'ts funding these studies will of course reap great rewards down the line when, and if, the GW carbon tax gravy train starts coming down the tracks.

Quid pro quo..............
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:50 PM   #69
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And Rob has the audacity to ask why I can't get off this thread. Its the best thread ever! Trains, Gravy, and Global Warming!!! I could go on for weeks!
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:37 PM   #70
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Oh, I see......... it's the "good guys" vs. the "bad guys". That has to be one of the most simplistic statements yet on the issue. Although I notice you didn't say man-made GW.
Easy.....there was a reason for me to stick that smiley face grin at the end of my post. Obviously it was a whopper of a caricature.

Nevertheless, you bring up a point with the bad guys/good guys comment. Regarding contentious issues, most of which are out of bounds on this forum. (abortion, evolution, creationism, gun control, medicare etc.). Most people choose a side and the opponents have a tendency to debate each other instead of trying to root out the truth. Scientists are easy targets because scientific progress is based on uncertainty. We move gropingly from absolute doubt towards, but never attaining, absolute certainty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
A bit harsh Neil, allow me to rephrase.

Fear mongers that claim the climate change experienced over the last 100 years is caused in fact by human activity. Their research is reviewed by their crony coworkers that have a vested interest in proving this research correct and go through great lengths to obfuscate their data and analysis because the general public is too stupid to ask the question "How did you come to that conclusion?"
Me, a bit harsh?

I used a smiley in an attempt to indicate levity.


Quote:
Other folks look at the historical warming and cooling of the planet and note that climate changes also occur naturally over the course of time and that you can sample a very short period an incorrectly hypothesize an extreme position that is all to readily accepted by the masses of internet readers.
Isn't it the short term that is affecting us the most, right now? I agree it's geologically just a wink of the eye but man-made or not, there is a current trend. Perhaps instead of spending money trying to decide if GW is happening or whether it isn't and how the current trend relates to geologic time I would try and figure out what to do about the 100 million living within 3 feet of sea level.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:43 PM   #71
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And Rob has the audacity to ask why I can't get off this thread. Its the best thread ever! Trains, Gravy, and Global Warming!!! I could go on for weeks!
TRAINS, PLANES AND AUTOMOBILES!!
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:54 PM   #72
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I would try and figure out what to do about the 100 million living within 3 feet of sea level.
Postcards are cheap. If it actually becomes a threat how about sending each of them one every 90 days until they either move or drown?
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:13 PM   #73
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Or below sea level.....

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try and figure out what to do about the 100 million living within 3 feet of sea level.
Simple, run as fast as you can to higher ground, with your post cards
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:14 PM   #74
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Here is a link to the EPA site. They claim experts predict temperatures to increase by 2 to 11 degrees F by 2100.

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/future.html

Taking the midpoint that’s 6.5F in less than 90 years. Look back at the original graph. By far the greatest rise occurred 8,000 years ago. Temperatures rose 6.75F over 400 years.
If you were to plot the prediction back onto the graph it would be practically vertical. Now look at the red portion of the temperature line. Do you see anything that would indicate a straight upward path? Don't forget to notice the little flatening out near the very end.
Again, models are only as good as the data they are based on. A model based on 200 years of rising data will predict a much steeper line than one based on 3000 years.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:48 PM   #75
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This sounds like the acid rain denials in the 80's. Scientists, who were pretty much of one mind on the topic, were labeled "Fear Mongers" by people on the payroll of the utility companies (and the Reagan era EPA). Name calling is very in these days. Now that there is no debate on the fact of acid rain these days, it only took the death of several thousand lakes and ponds in the meantime.

I am no climate scientist, but what if you are wrong? Do you really believe that human industrial activity, regardless of its level, has no ability to impact the atmosphere?
If lakes in the adirondacks had naturally gone through clearly defined acidic periods I would say the facts were analagous.

I believe human activity produces carbon that is trapped in the earth but as has been argued in the past creating and burning carbon is a zero sum game. My bigger fear is that deforestation is having a large effect on the natural cycle of removing carbon from the atmosphere as would normally happen in high carbon periods. Boom and busts don't appear to be a human specific phenomenon, it happens in nature quite often over time.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:54 PM   #76
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Isn't it the short term that is affecting us the most, right now? I agree it's geologically just a wink of the eye but man-made or not, there is a current trend. Perhaps instead of spending money trying to decide if GW is happening or whether it isn't and how the current trend relates to geologic time I would try and figure out what to do about the 100 million living within 3 feet of sea level.
Easy, move them to Greenland.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:17 PM   #77
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If lakes in the adirondacks had naturally gone through clearly defined acidic periods I would say the facts were analagous.

I believe human activity produces carbon that is trapped in the earth but as has been argued in the past creating and burning carbon is a zero sum game. My bigger fear is that deforestation is having a large effect on the natural cycle of removing carbon from the atmosphere as would normally happen in high carbon periods. Boom and busts don't appear to be a human specific phenomenon, it happens in nature quite often over time.

Understood, but my underlying point remains. Science and politics should not mix. I remember very well the labels and vitriole directed against those in the science and environmental communities in regard to acid rain. "You'll kill jobs", "Nobody will be able to afford electric rates", "Anti-american left wing commies" and the like. The thought that 15,000 climate scientists in a highly competitive environment could conspire on such a scale is mind boggling to me. Do they all get to invest in some secret company stock that in 20 or 30 years will pay off big time?
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:23 PM   #78
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Re: the 1970's

a link to the American Meteorological Society Journal

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/...2008BAMS2370.1
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:20 AM   #79
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Understood, but my underlying point remains. Science and politics should not mix. I remember very well the labels and vitriole directed against those in the science and environmental communities in regard to acid rain. "You'll kill jobs", "Nobody will be able to afford electric rates", "Anti-american left wing commies" and the like. The thought that 15,000 climate scientists in a highly competitive environment could conspire on such a scale is mind boggling to me. Do they all get to invest in some secret company stock that in 20 or 30 years will pay off big time?
Unfortunately while you may have won the battle of opinion in the scientific community you seem to have lost the war on the world stage.

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/em...tions-co2.html

Some excerpts:

"The two-week worldwide climate summit in Doha, Qatar, ended amid gloom last weekend, with only 37 of the 195 participating nations agreeing to extend the ineffectual Kyoto treaty to curb greenhouse gas emissions."

"The 37 nation members left generate only 15 percent of worldwide emissions."

"Princeton University satellite analysis also concludes that future rising sea levels, perhaps the most frightening of predictions, have been seriously overestimated, the U.K. Register reported during the conference."

"The theory of catastrophic manmade global warming is predicated on there being a high sensitivity to increases in CO2 in the atmosphere that results in higher temperatures.
So it also doesn't help the cause that, "one-third of all human emissions of CO2 have occurred since 1998. And temperatures haven't budged as a result,"
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:13 AM   #80
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Unfortunately while you may have won the battle of opinion in the scientific community you seem to have lost the war on the world stage.

http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/em...tions-co2.html

Some excerpts:

"The two-week worldwide climate summit in Doha, Qatar, ended amid gloom last weekend, with only 37 of the 195 participating nations agreeing to extend the ineffectual Kyoto treaty to curb greenhouse gas emissions."

"The 37 nation members left generate only 15 percent of worldwide emissions."

"Princeton University satellite analysis also concludes that future rising sea levels, perhaps the most frightening of predictions, have been seriously overestimated, the U.K. Register reported during the conference."

"The theory of catastrophic manmade global warming is predicated on there being a high sensitivity to increases in CO2 in the atmosphere that results in higher temperatures.
So it also doesn't help the cause that, "one-third of all human emissions of CO2 have occurred since 1998. And temperatures haven't budged as a result,"

Well it's not "my" war, and you forgot an excerpt:

"The Doha conference, however, seemed more concerned with politics and wealth transfers than CO2 and warming."
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