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#81 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,006
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Quote:
The only thing that property owners should be happy about is that this dispute is finally entering the realm of due process. Let's hope it stays there until a meaningful decision is made, and that the apparent efforts of the AG, the Sierra Club, the Times Union and others to rhetorically bludgeon the property owners into abandoning their effort to get a fair hearing are unsuccessful. |
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#82 | |||
ɹǝqɯǝɯ
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,529
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Quote:
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My response was doing just what you say- take the emotion out of it. On the surface, his post looks like an impassioned statement that one would feel cold to disagree with. When you strip away all the emotion in his post, though, there's not really much there. He makes some good statements about the impracticality of pushing this issue and spending public money on such an issue when the state is broke, but as to exactly why Phil is in the wrong, he doesn't elaborate, other than to say Phil is wrong and he knows this for sure becuase he's "not an armchair expert." It's too bad, because it sounds like he has a lot of experience with similar situations that we could all benefit from having him share. Quote:
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#83 |
Whachu talking about
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,324
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I would argue that the state intervention benefits noone let alone .0001%.
There is no arguement that private landowners own that stretch of SSB and the owners did not "license, invite, or privilege" Phil's presence. Under that definition, a person does not transgress when he enters or stays in a place open at the time to the public, unless he is specifically warned not to enter or remain. The fact that some portions of the premises were open to the public, including the defendant, does not mean that he has a privilege with reference to closed-off portions. Phils and the state's argument is that the waterway should not be closed-off they do not dispute ownership. That is why it's a simple trespass case. Said firmly from my armchair. RE Deshatt: I don't know anyone that wants to defend rights or privileges they currently enjoy in a court of law. Actually that would be unwise, said politely.
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#84 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Clay, NY
Posts: 199
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If they feel those rights are being violated, I sure bet they do.
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“Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.” ~John Muir Photos |
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#85 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,006
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#86 |
Kayak-46
![]() Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,991
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Randomscooter, you're a numbers guy, right? Any guesses as to the percentage of the people of the state of New York who have benefited from the various SSB threads here on ADKForum?
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The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun. |
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#87 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 904
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#88 |
Moderator
![]() Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West Sand Lake, NY
Posts: 2,220
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“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds.” ~ Aldo Leopold |
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#89 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 904
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#90 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,006
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Cost of course is an important consideration, and I'd say the cost is commensurate with the benefit.
Last edited by fisher39; 03-09-2011 at 06:03 PM.. |
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#91 | |
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,933
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Quote:
Hawk
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#92 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 60
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I said I would not chime in again but I changed my mind.
In my opinion it’s a simple trespass case because that is essentially what Phil is being sued for. He paddled SSB which crosses property owned with clear title by a private owner. When the local police declined to arrest him they sued. Phil is banking on the navigation issue to justify and sanctify his actions and he’s hoping that it will have repercussions beyond SSB . If you strip out all the emotion and his intentions for going in the first place all that is left is a trespass case.
My point in stating that I felt that the case would be settled without going to trial is based on my experiences in court on other real property cases. Every trial lawyer will tell you that a settlement, even if you don’t get everything you want is better than risking a trial with an unknown outcome. Think about it. Why would you put your entire case, all your risk, money etc. into the hands of six jurors who were too stupid to get themselves out of jury duty? And if it’s a bench trial with only the judge making the decision then you are placing all your faith into one person whose background and education will play a part in the decision. Judges are supposed to be impartial but their opinions on things are a product of their life experiences just like the rest of us. 95% of all cases are settled and a settlement will not set any precedent for navigation beyond SSB even if that issue is discussed. Eventually the plaintiff or the defendants will make a business decision and seek a settlement. It boils down to dollars and cents. You also have to remember that most lawyers and hence most judges who were private lawyers before being appointed or elected to the bench are woefully under educated in real property law. If the judge does not want to spend the time to truly understand the case he/she will press the parties very hard to settle it. See you on the water - real water, not SSB. |
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#93 |
ɹǝqɯǝɯ
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,529
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#94 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 904
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#95 | |
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,933
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Quote:
remember, it's the landowners who chose to risk the lawsuit, not Phil Brown. And it has nothing to do with real property law, it has to do with Common Law and navigability issues. Hawk
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"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson |
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#96 |
Indian Mt.Club
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,637
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Does floating logs down stream in the spring flood. both natural and man made, play a factor in this?
How many years ago was that....
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#97 | |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 904
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Quote:
Due to the non-obvious status of SSB, perhaps Phil should have: 1) Inquired with the authorities and/or owners of the surrounding property before-hand to determine what the status actually was. I'm no law expert, but it would seem that until/unless that section of SSB is proven to be open to the public, what he did would be considered trespassing - which is why he finds himself in court. 2) If he was not happy with the results from step 1, then HE should have taken the case to court to challenge that outcome. If one thinks a law or statute is in question, the way to challenge that in our current legal system is within the courts - not in the field. ----------------------------------- It means the difference between... Challenging a regulation in court OR Defending one's self against criminal charges by means of challenging a regulation in court. ----------------------------------- I can see how, by choosing the course he did, it leads some to speculate as to possible underlying motives... or his state of mind. |
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#98 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 60
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Like I said
in my first post: Brown should have been the plaintiff not the defendant. If his motive was truly noble and he was trying to achive a benefit for everyone he should have used a different approach than trespassing to dare a response from the landowner.
I'm done here. I'm heading to the shop to work on another canoe - a much better use of my time. |
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#99 | ||
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,933
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Quote:
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Therefore the case had to be "forced" by taking the actions that Phil did. It's an American thing, one of the things that Americans say "makes America great". So Phil only did something that goes back to Revolutionary times and has been practiced by Americans ever since. It called "Civil Disobedience". hawk
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"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson |
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#100 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Washingtonville, NY
Posts: 255
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[QUOTE=redhawk;166160 So Phil only did something that goes back to Revolutionary times and has been practiced by Americans ever since. It called "Civil Disobedience".
hawk[/QUOTE] Civil disobedience is standing up against a government authority. The other folks are just private citizens. |
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