Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > The Adirondack Forum > Hiking in the Adirondacks
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-30-2004, 01:17 AM   #1
fvrwld
Moderator
 
fvrwld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West Sand Lake, NY
Posts: 2,216
Question Couchsachraga(and the Santanoni Range)

I am planning on doing the Santanoni Range in the near future. I have been reading up on it and I noticed a discrepency between two books. The ADK book states that Couchsachraga is an Algonquin name for the Adirondacks that means "dismal wilderness". Barbara McMartin's book states that it is an Indian name for "land of the beavers". Does anyone know what it is?? Just curious.

Also...any thoughts on doing The Santanoni range from Duck hole would be appreciated. Are the paths up Panther, Santanoni and Couchsachraga well defined? How long should I expect it to take once I reach Bradley Pond?
__________________
“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds.” ~ Aldo Leopold

Last edited by fvrwld; 07-30-2004 at 01:29 AM..
fvrwld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 01:33 AM   #2
rondak100
Mike
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bethel, Vermont
Posts: 227
"Adirondack" I believe, Means "bark eaters", referring to beavers. The Operaive word in the ADK guide is "ancient" . It is an older, extinct, Indian Language. "Adirondack" would be the more modern Indian word. I will not try to name a tribe, but it may be just a more modern Algonquin language, since the Algonquins thrived into the Post Columbian era, claimed territory from Split Rock Mt. (on Lake Champlain) up into Canada, and would not be referred to as ancient.

Something I heard from my old hiking buddy, and only from him, is interesting. He said that the "Bark Eaters" actually refer to the people who lived in the ADK's. They supposedly adapted to and lived on a diet of tree bark. They were, according to legend, able to digest cellulose because their digestive system was able to host Giardia, which broke the cellulose down. The downside was that they were entirely insane.

Its a neat story. My friend was not one to make stuff up like this, so, the source of the legend is unknown to me.

Mike
__________________
Though we rush ahead
To save our time
We are only what we feel.

Neil Young

Last edited by rondak100; 07-30-2004 at 01:47 AM..
rondak100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 01:39 AM   #3
rondak100
Mike
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Bethel, Vermont
Posts: 227
Regarding hiking the Santi's from Ducks hole:

I would check out the University of New Hampshire site that has the old maps of the region. ( I have them on my PC and can e-mail them to you). I have lost the URL so if anyone can supply it please do.

There were two old camps on the N. side of Panther/ Cochie. If I were going from DH I would mix in a little exploration of the sites and the old routes. I would also add an ascen/descent using Ermine Brook. I have heard great things about it.

It looks like you have the beginnings of a plan that avoids the Bradly Pond Wallow, (although I do not remember the nightmare that people now report).

Mike

Mike
__________________
Though we rush ahead
To save our time
We are only what we feel.

Neil Young

Last edited by rondak100; 07-30-2004 at 01:49 AM..
rondak100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 09:04 AM   #4
lumberzac
Beware of the Lumberzac
 
lumberzac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: country of the lakes and the crooked stream
Posts: 1,730
If you are planning on taking the regular herd path (off of the Bradley Pond Trail) up to do the range I wouldn’t do it from Duck Hole. The Bradley Pond Trail does go to Duck hole but it is a muddy mess. For those that have hiked in from the Upper Works side through that soupy trail, think about 3 to 4 more miles of that. This is what I’ve heard what the trail is like over to Duck Hole.
__________________
A man needs to believe in something. I believe I'll go hiking.

http://community.webshots.com/user/lumberzac
lumberzac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 09:06 AM   #5
AlpineSummit
Walk Softly
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Eastern Slope of the Adirondacks
Posts: 97
A very nice route to Duck Hole is the one that goes around the north shore of Henderson Lake - very sweet.
__________________
Happy Trails!
AlpineSummit
AlpineSummit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 09:29 AM   #6
Kevin
**BANNED**
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: West Sand Lake, NY
Posts: 5,857
I have the GPS coordinates for this hike, which can be found online...

Basically, add 6-7 miles into the mountains and back out to Bradley pond, then add the miles back to camp, and you're looking at approx 14 miles total from duck hole. It's only 16-ish from the Works trailhead to do these as a day hike. You're not actually doing yourself much of a favor donig these mountains from duck hole. If you REALLY want a challenge, try climbing McNaughton -- I've read it's a bear of a climb! lol

The real problem with the trails TO the santononis is the MUD. And lots of it. In discussion from the trail maintenance thread, it seems the property owners are refusing trail maintenance (which is their right, but the environmental impact is starting to be known).
Kevin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 09:33 AM   #7
Dick
somewhere out there...
 
Dick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: avatar: Patagonia
Posts: 2,822
An interesting web site (http://www.tolatsga.org/alg.html) says that the name "Adirondack" ("Ha-de-ron-dah") was a derogatory name given by the Iroquois for the Algonquin tribes and means literally "they eat trees." The history appears to be quite involved, and complicated further by interpretations of later scientists, explorers, etc.(see http://www.adirondack/net/history/ which gives Prof. Ebenezer Emmons's 19th century account of the origin of the name for the area). On another site I found an account of the word "Couchsachrage" that says it was a name given by the Five Nations, which claimed the land to be their private hunting preserve and meant "The Beaver Hunting Grounds of the Iroquois" (Mohawks were one of the five, and called Iroquois by the French). This site (http://www.masterpieces.com/trivia.htm) lists as its source the book Adirondack Country, William Chapman White, 1954, 1967. Disclaimer: a native American scholar I'm not, and so I have no idea how accurate these sites are!
I haven't done Duck Hole to Bradley Pond stretch, but I haven't heard many good things to say about it, although I understand it has been improved. However, the herd paths to the three mountains are infinitely better than the mess around Bradley Pond, and for the most part are very well defined.
Dick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 10:12 AM   #8
Neil
Kayak-46
 
Neil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,877
The best time to do the Santanoni range is in the winter. However, I hope to go and re-do Panther and Santa this fall.
The view from Santanoni on a clear day is extra special because you can see a lot of high peaks.
Can anyone name all of them?
__________________
The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.
Neil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 10:13 AM   #9
lumberzac
Beware of the Lumberzac
 
lumberzac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: country of the lakes and the crooked stream
Posts: 1,730
I love the view up Indian Pass from Santanoni.
__________________
A man needs to believe in something. I believe I'll go hiking.

http://community.webshots.com/user/lumberzac
lumberzac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 10:34 AM   #10
redhawk
Senior Resident Curmudgeon
 
redhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In My Memories
Posts: 10,932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
An interesting web site (http://www.tolatsga.org/alg.html) says that the name "Adirondack" ("Ha-de-ron-dah") was a derogatory name given by the Iroquois for the Algonquin tribes and means literally "they eat trees." The history appears to be quite involved, and complicated further by interpretations of later scientists, explorers, etc.(see http://www.adirondack/net/history/ which gives Prof. Ebenezer Emmons's 19th century account of the origin of the name for the area). On another site I found an account of the word "Couchsachrage" that says it was a name given by the Five Nations, which claimed the land to be their private hunting preserve and meant "The Beaver Hunting Grounds of the Iroquois" (Mohawks were one of the five, and called Iroquois by the French). This site (http://www.masterpieces.com/trivia.htm) lists as its source the book Adirondack Country, William Chapman White, 1954, 1967. Disclaimer: a native American scholar I'm not, and so I have no idea how accurate these sites are!
I haven't done Duck Hole to Bradley Pond stretch, but I haven't heard many good things to say about it, although I understand it has been improved. However, the herd paths to the three mountains are infinitely better than the mess around Bradley Pond, and for the most part are very well defined.
Right On Dick. That's pretty much accurate.

Let me just add that "Algonquin" was not a tribe or Nation, but a group that was "language based". Among the "Algonquin" group were the Penobscot, the Mohigan and the Abanake (among others).
__________________
"If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson
redhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 11:57 AM   #11
Mavs00
I am the sith
 
Mavs00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
The best time to do the Santanoni range is in the winter. However, I hope to go and re-do Panther and Santa this fall.
The view from Santanoni on a clear day is extra special because you can see a lot of high peaks.
Can anyone name all of them?
Ummmmmmm......... Another pathetic example of my fact that "I could REALLY use to get a life"...........

but........YES, I CAN

__________________
"I can feel your anger. It gives you focus. It makes you stronger. " Supreme Chancellor
Mavs00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 02:00 PM   #12
Neil
Kayak-46
 
Neil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,877
Quote:
but........YES, I CAN
Very cool,
Can you see the Sewards from Colvin?
(If this becomes a new game we'll move to a different thread)
__________________
The best, the most successful adventurer, is the one having the most fun.
Neil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 02:07 PM   #13
lumberzac
Beware of the Lumberzac
 
lumberzac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: country of the lakes and the crooked stream
Posts: 1,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
Very cool,
Can you see the Sewards from Colvin?
(If this becomes a new game we'll move to a different thread)
I don't think you can, but you're welcome to try and see.

Photos from Colvin
__________________
A man needs to believe in something. I believe I'll go hiking.

http://community.webshots.com/user/lumberzac
lumberzac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 02:40 PM   #14
Mavs00
I am the sith
 
Mavs00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
Very cool,
Can you see the Sewards from Colvin?
(If this becomes a new game we'll move to a different thread)
No, on a direct line of sight, the Sewards are blocked from view by (among others) Redfield, Syklight, and Marcy. Perhaps if it were about 1800' higher .

I have a picture in that direction, but I'm too lazy to find it
__________________
"I can feel your anger. It gives you focus. It makes you stronger. " Supreme Chancellor
Mavs00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 07:46 PM   #15
fvrwld
Moderator
 
fvrwld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West Sand Lake, NY
Posts: 2,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by rondak100
Regarding hiking the Santi's from Ducks hole:

I would check out the University of New Hampshire site that has the old maps of the region. ( I have them on my PC and can e-mail them to you). I have lost the URL so if anyone can supply it please do.

There were two old camps on the N. side of Panther/ Cochie. If I were going from DH I would mix in a little exploration of the sites and the old routes. I would also add an ascen/descent using Ermine Brook. I have heard great things about it.

It looks like you have the beginnings of a plan that avoids the Bradly Pond Wallow, (although I do not remember the nightmare that people now report).

Mike

Mike

Mike...I'll PM you my e-mail adress so you can send me those maps....thanks

I read up on the Ermine Brook and slide and that sounds cool. The only problem is it is from the other side of Santanoni. When I do the range I will save Santanoni for last...that way if I don't get to it I can do it via the slide in the future.
__________________
“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds.” ~ Aldo Leopold
fvrwld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 08:39 PM   #16
fvrwld
Moderator
 
fvrwld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West Sand Lake, NY
Posts: 2,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin
I have the GPS coordinates for this hike, which can be found online...

Basically, add 6-7 miles into the mountains and back out to Bradley pond, then add the miles back to camp, and you're looking at approx 14 miles total from duck hole. It's only 16-ish from the Works trailhead to do these as a day hike. You're not actually doing yourself much of a favor donig these mountains from duck hole. If you REALLY want a challenge, try climbing McNaughton -- I've read it's a bear of a climb! lol.
Actually I think I'm doing myself a huge favor. To me it sounds like the perfect weekend.
Get to the Corey's trailhead early on a Saturday morning and hike into Duck Hole, set up camp or snag a lean-to. Spend the rest of the day exploring/relaxing around duck hole. Get up early the next day and do the Santanoni range with just a daypack, head back to basecamp at Duck hole for another night at what I've been told is an absolutely beautiful spot.The next day hike out. I may even stay a third night and climb MacNaughton on Monday and hike out on Tuesday.(someone offered to work for me monday night). I think that I am getting the best of both worlds here. A long hike with full pack(which I want in order to prepare for the NPT) and 3 high peaks(reaching my goal of 10 peaks this year)...all in one weekend. :headbang:
__________________
“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds.” ~ Aldo Leopold
fvrwld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2004, 08:47 PM   #17
fvrwld
Moderator
 
fvrwld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West Sand Lake, NY
Posts: 2,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
An interesting web site (http://www.tolatsga.org/alg.html) says that the name "Adirondack" ("Ha-de-ron-dah") was a derogatory name given by the Iroquois for the Algonquin tribes and means literally "they eat trees." The history appears to be quite involved, and complicated further by interpretations of later scientists, explorers, etc.(see http://www.adirondack/net/history/ which gives Prof. Ebenezer Emmons's 19th century account of the origin of the name for the area). On another site I found an account of the word "Couchsachrage" that says it was a name given by the Five Nations, which claimed the land to be their private hunting preserve and meant "The Beaver Hunting Grounds of the Iroquois" (Mohawks were one of the five, and called Iroquois by the French). This site (http://www.masterpieces.com/trivia.htm) lists as its source the book Adirondack Country, William Chapman White, 1954, 1967. Disclaimer: a native American scholar I'm not, and so I have no idea how accurate these sites are!
I haven't done Duck Hole to Bradley Pond stretch, but I haven't heard many good things to say about it, although I understand it has been improved. However, the herd paths to the three mountains are infinitely better than the mess around Bradley Pond, and for the most part are very well defined.
Very interesting stuff..thanks.
__________________
“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds.” ~ Aldo Leopold
fvrwld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2004, 01:03 PM   #18
Kevin
**BANNED**
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: West Sand Lake, NY
Posts: 5,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by fvrwld
Actually I think I'm doing myself a huge favor. To me it sounds like the perfect weekend.
Get to the Corey's trailhead early on a Saturday morning and hike into Duck Hole, set up camp or snag a lean-to. Spend the rest of the day exploring/relaxing around duck hole. Get up early the next day and do the Santanoni range with just a daypack, head back to basecamp at Duck hole for another night at what I've been told is an absolutely beautiful spot.The next day hike out. I may even stay a third night and climb MacNaughton on Monday and hike out on Tuesday.(someone offered to work for me monday night). I think that I am getting the best of both worlds here. A long hike with full pack(which I want in order to prepare for the NPT) and 3 high peaks(reaching my goal of 10 peaks this year)...all in one weekend. :headbang:
I see Duck Hole as a trip in and of itself, to spend an entire day (the day you would be climbing the Sant's) roaming around, fishing, relaxing. It's 9 miles to Duck Hole from Corey's, and after a rather stenuous day hiking the Sant's you're definitely going to be sore for the hike out...

I knew when you posted the question you already had your mind made up anyway, which is why I didn't go into much detail in my post
Kevin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2004, 05:41 AM   #19
fvrwld
Moderator
 
fvrwld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West Sand Lake, NY
Posts: 2,216
Well...it would just be very hard to convince me otherwise. I posted the question because my biggest fear is getting lost and I wanted to make sure the path was easy to follow. The books really don't tell you that. The mud will probably slow me down but thanks to everyones repies(THANKYOU ) I will be well prepared for it. I will be playing this by year and kinda' doubt that I will get all 3 peaks done in one day.

I may spend 3 nights there and that will give me time to explore. Most important to me right now though is getting miles under my feet so I'm in good shape for the NPT. I'm sure I will be returning to Duck Hole many times in the future.

Next question...anyone want to join me this weekend(8/7-8/9&possibly 8/10)?
I'll be posting over at trip planning.
__________________
“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds.” ~ Aldo Leopold
fvrwld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2004, 01:04 PM   #20
Jeff
Member
 
Jeff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Albany, N.Y.
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick
An interesting web site (http://www.tolatsga.org/alg.html) says that the name "Adirondack" ("Ha-de-ron-dah") was a derogatory name given by the Iroquois for the Algonquin tribes and means literally "they eat trees." The history appears to be quite involved, and complicated further by interpretations of later scientists, explorers, etc.(see http://www.adirondack/net/history/ which gives Prof. Ebenezer Emmons's 19th century account of the origin of the name for the area). On another site I found an account of the word "Couchsachrage" that says it was a name given by the Five Nations, which claimed the land to be their private hunting preserve and meant "The Beaver Hunting Grounds of the Iroquois" (Mohawks were one of the five, and called Iroquois by the French). This site (http://www.masterpieces.com/trivia.htm) lists as its source the book Adirondack Country, William Chapman White, 1954, 1967. Disclaimer: a native American scholar I'm not, and so I have no idea how accurate these sites are!
I haven't done Duck Hole to Bradley Pond stretch, but I haven't heard many good things to say about it, although I understand it has been improved. However, the herd paths to the three mountains are infinitely better than the mess around Bradley Pond, and for the most part are very well defined.
Thanks Dick for clarifying that. I just read this thread and saw the erroneous post. Kept reading down and saw your post. Thank You for making that correction.
Jeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.