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Old 12-27-2011, 11:03 AM   #241
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Link to fracking spill in PA

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...Pa__crash.html
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Old 12-27-2011, 12:48 PM   #242
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7192OL20110210
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Old 12-27-2011, 03:42 PM   #243
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Now if someone had any intelligence they would collect some samples and analyze whats in it.
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:08 AM   #244
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Now if someone had any intelligence they would collect some samples and analyze whats in it.
There's no mystery.Here is what's in it.At least the ones that can affect health.
http://www.riverreporter.com/issues/...4/fracking.pdf
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Old 12-31-2011, 11:42 PM   #245
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There's no mystery.Here is what's in it.At least the ones that can affect health.
http://www.riverreporter.com/issues/...4/fracking.pdf


Even worse than I thought.
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:06 PM   #246
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Mario??????

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/01/us/ohi...ead::banghead:
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:13 PM   #247
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Just about as dangerous as the laundry detergent you flush into the water supply every day.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_6025673_da...chemicals.html

Fracking causing (not just exacerbating) earthquakes reaks of sensationalism.


Anyone that thinks there isn't some trade-off to harvesting natural resources is mistaken. However, there does appear to be a hysteria surrounding the harvesting of NatGas making fracking a whipping boy for everything.

I never thought the "environmentalists" would fight hand in hand with Big Oil to prevent the development of a viable domestic energy alternative.

Interesting to watch it gyrate in the mass media though.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:37 PM   #248
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Just about as dangerous as the laundry detergent you flush into the water supply every day.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_6025673_da...chemicals.html

Fracking causing (not just exacerbating) earthquakes reaks of sensationalism.


Anyone that thinks there isn't some trade-off to harvesting natural resources is mistaken. However, there does appear to be a hysteria surrounding the harvesting of NatGas making fracking a whipping boy for everything.

I never thought the "environmentalists" would fight hand in hand with Big Oil to prevent the development of a viable domestic energy alternative.

Interesting to watch it gyrate in the mass media though.
Do you have any proof that fraking can not cause earthquakes? Has any studies been done on this?

If the answer to both questions is no, then it is not "Sensationalism" but precautionary.

Those "dangerous" laundry chemicals are not being pumped into the earth, but are being released into our waste systems, a big difference. And to be honest, there are alternative "Green" cleaning solutions, nut they are a little more expensive then the mainline ones so most people would rather save a buck then the environment. So much for that argument.

So, should people not be concerned with might be a side effect of a process? Or should they just proceed blindly as usual?
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:45 PM   #249
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Just how much gas is there anyway?

http://www.slate.com/articles/health...d_states_.html
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Old 01-03-2012, 03:06 PM   #250
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You cannot prove a null hypothesis to be true. One can only reject or not reject it.

If you are against fracking at all costs these arguments are great to make.

For example "proving" the null hypothesis true:
Hippie farts cause earthquakes.
Earthquakes happen
Therefore hippie farts cause earthquakes.

or

Hippie farts don't cause earthquakes
Earthquakes happen
Therefore we cannot reject the hypothesis that hippie farts don't cause earthquakes, but that does not make it a true statement.

Call me selfish, I like to fly fish, the lower the price of nat gas goes the less acid rain we get from the midwest. Not to mention cars burning gas is pretty much agreed to be the biggest polluter besides cow (and hippie) farts. Burning nat gas in cars would help the environment a lot but yeah you have to pump toxic chemicals into the ground with unkown repercussions. Better then pumping the toxic chemicals into the air, or is it?

Anyway wouldn't carcinogens in the drinking water fix the biggest problem the environment has right now? You should be all for fracking given the risks you alledge, if you are a true environmentalist.

I'm very confused.
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Old 01-03-2012, 03:26 PM   #251
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Frakking (and exploiting the tar sands of Alberta) is just a way putting off until tomorrow what really needs to be done today.
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:26 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
You cannot prove a null hypothesis to be true. One can only reject or not reject it.

If you are against fracking at all costs these arguments are great to make.

For example "proving" the null hypothesis true:
Hippie farts cause earthquakes.
Earthquakes happen
Therefore hippie farts cause earthquakes.

or

Hippie farts don't cause earthquakes
Earthquakes happen
Therefore we cannot reject the hypothesis that hippie farts don't cause earthquakes, but that does not make it a true statement.

Call me selfish, I like to fly fish, the lower the price of nat gas goes the less acid rain we get from the midwest. Not to mention cars burning gas is pretty much agreed to be the biggest polluter besides cow (and hippie) farts. Burning nat gas in cars would help the environment a lot but yeah you have to pump toxic chemicals into the ground with unkown repercussions. Better then pumping the toxic chemicals into the air, or is it?

Anyway wouldn't carcinogens in the drinking water fix the biggest problem the environment has right now? You should be all for fracking given the risks you alledge, if you are a true environmentalist.

I'm very confused.
My point is that there is no proof either way because there has not been enough time to research it or come up with a hypothesis. That being the case, we should err on the side of caution.

My fear is that because of the amount of money to be made by the corporations, the coondition of the economy today which makes fracking attractive to the politicians because of the tax money it brings in coupled with the jobs it will supposedly create, and of course the boost to the local economies, that dceisions are being made for the wrong reason.

What I am opposed to is decisions being made that could adversely affect the health or the safety of thousands of people without knowing the long term effects.
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:35 PM   #253
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Everything is a delay of the inevitable. My main concern is acid rain and deforestation and natgas helps solve those problems. Then again I care about the Adirondacks.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:39 PM   #254
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The U.S. has a surplus of NatGas as it exports quite a lot (over a trillion cubic feet in 2010). The claim we need to get the gas that currently is stored in the Marcellus Shale to reduce our usage of coal, or oil is specious. We don't use all that we produce at present. The gas in the marcellus shale isn't going anywhere, and as the world supply decreases, the value will only increase.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:07 AM   #255
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If the US fails to adapt to an economcial energy resource it will, as well as Canada, export to foreign consumption. One particular play's development is somewhat irrelevant to the strategic whole. You have shale plays in the midwest burning off natgas as a byproduct because the infrastructure has been opposed by those caring for the "environment".

I have yet to see an Adirondack tie in except for the reduction in emmission or preventation of deforestation that comes from utilizing natural gas as an energy source.

If the environmentalists and big oil continue to perpetuate the status quo, there will be additional liquification plants constructed to export the resource to the people that are willing to pay to burn it, and that's Europe and China. Those LNG exportation plants should be opposed but inevitably economics, in the presence of a quasi regulated economey [read NYS and not Canada or PA/WV MT], will dictate their construction. Then we lose, lose.

Yes it's not that black and white but I am using literary prose. Apoligies if I am being political or offensive I do not see how this topic can be discussed otherwise.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:42 AM   #256
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Expert sayds ohio earthquake not natural from fracking

http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-earthquak...002703764.html
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:36 AM   #257
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I think hawk has it right the big rush is due to the synergy between the drive for job creation and profits more than the desire to pollute the environment as fast as possible.


And just to keep the facts straight the US is a net importer of Natural Gas not a net exporter.

http://www.naturalgas.org/business/supply.asp#dryng

However if prices continue to be depressed in the States it will find a home elsewhere.

I'm shocked we aren't adapting to this resource. Actually I'm not, keep burning 3 cords of wood every winter, that's clean and renewable and great for the environment. I mean who doesn't love new growth forest.

Considering the amount of energy that New York imports I think it's specious to say the resource isn't needed.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:46 PM   #258
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Many wells these days can harvest dry NatGas or liquids like Oil or LNG. So they are moved based on economics to different plays. Oil right now is more profitable because Nat Gas isn't used in cars and is difficult to shipto China or Europe as gasoline or liquified nat gas (NatGas as a percentage of Oil is very historically cheap right now). Or those wells aren't producing enough to run, or maybe they are test wells. The next big fight will be over LNG exporting facilities over the next decade.

When all the nat gas is used up we will have to find a replacement just like when we found the nat gas. The same conundrum is found in the future for everything that is consumed.

Coal and Oil are worse to burn pollution wise, that is a fact. More tests would be great but it appears from the arguments here and elsewhere it won't matter how many tests are done folks' minds are made up.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:02 PM   #259
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Why do these arguments always come down to an all or nothing us vs. them proposition?

Is natural gas better than coal for the atmosphere-Yes.

Has natural gas been in the ground for several million years-Yes.

Will it be there tomorrow, next year, next millenia?-Yes

So why not take the time to find out more and do it right? What is a year or two when the commodity markets change from week to week?

I for one would be glad to see coal go, but not at the expense of the groundwater. But, I think with more science and a little more cost (god forbid) we could get this right for a change.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:47 PM   #260
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No need to drag religion into this!!! just kidding!

Fracking has been going on a large scale since the 60's. I think the first commercial fracking was done in '49.

I'm not sure that qualifies as a rush even by government standards. It's just there hasn't been the demand in place because it's more difficult to transport and store vs. say oil or coal.
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