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Old 11-17-2010, 12:28 PM   #21
dundee
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Can't close the Lila Rd. That's how the private landowners at Nehasane Lake get there, AFAIK.
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:40 PM   #22
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Can't close the Lila Rd. That's how the private landowners at Nehasane Lake get there, AFAIK.
You can't put a couple of boulders in the road, but you can simply put a lock on the gate that only the Nehasane people and the DEC has keys to. My understanding is that the DEC keeps that gate locked during the winter and mud season, although they and the landowners can use the road if they want.

I was just pointing out the Lila road as a much more egregious example of "rule bending" that results in Wilderness (thats with a capital W to indicate that I'm referring to the SLMP classification) being significantly compromised. My personal preferences aside, I'm not going to argue that that exception should be ended!
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Old 11-18-2010, 06:33 PM   #23
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I was just pointing out the Lila road as a much more egregious example of "rule bending" that results in Wilderness (thats with a capital W to indicate that I'm referring to the SLMP classification) being significantly compromised. My personal preferences aside, I'm not going to argue that that exception should be ended!
The Lila access road is entirely on private land until about 100 yards before the parking area. There is no rule-bending involved here, unless you're complaining about that 100 yards.

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I wonder- does the ADK ever poll it's member base before choosing a stance on issues like this? (Serious question) Sometimes I get the sense that opinions expressed by the ADK might not accurately reflect the views of the members of the organization as a whole.
My understanding is that ADK is run as something like a dictatorship, at least as far as choosing their positions. The dictator can be swayed, but if he doesn't agree, it doesn't happen. Like a "real" dictatorship, that has its pluses and minuses.
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:25 PM   #24
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So, I'm gathering that mountain biking would still be allowed on the Otter Brook truck trail, but will no longer be allowed on Indian Lake Road?
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:31 PM   #25
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So, I'm gathering that mountain biking would still be allowed on the Otter Brook truck trail, but will no longer be allowed on Indian Lake Road?
Based on the mountain bike trail map linked from DEC's site here (direct link to map here), Indian Lake Road would remain the wilderness boundary, and would be open to mountain biking. It looks like it's a proposed mountain bike route actually.
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:46 PM   #26
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Thanks Colden46.

Biking, hiking, or otherwise... I can't wait to return to that area at the end of Indian Lake Road and beyond.... absolutely amazing country back in there!
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:49 PM   #27
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Thanks Colden46.

Biking, hiking, or otherwise... I can't wait to return to that area at the end of Indian Lake Road and beyond.... absolutely amazing country back in there!
agreed.
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:15 PM   #28
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agreed.
was just there today....
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Old 11-19-2010, 03:54 PM   #29
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And you have that on personal knowledge or someone told you ?
An opinion I formed on my own based on knowing someone rather involved in ADK, is all I'll say.

Though perhaps the word "dictatorship" carries with it too much baggage. I'm talking benevolent here, not Stalin.

Last edited by colden46; 11-19-2010 at 05:33 PM.. Reason: reworded
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Old 11-19-2010, 04:08 PM   #30
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As reported by wnbz this morning

APA makes last minute change to Moose River Plains


One of the most complicated management planning processes in the history of the Adirondack Park Agency took a last minute turn Thursday, as commissioners opted to split up a 14,700 acre region in an attempt to avoid setting a precedent.

For over five years, agency and state Department of Environmental Conservation staff have struggled with the best approach at managing the extremely popular Moose River Plains Wild Forest.

Of particular interest are two aspects of the most recent proposed management plan that would see over 84,000 acres remain wild forest, while just under 15,000 acres would become wilderness.

The DEC plan would have seen the southernmost 14,700 acres transferred into the West Canada Wilderness.

But that wilderness would have been bisected by the old Otter Brook Truck Road, which would remain open to mountain bikers and other non-motorized forms of recreation. The truck road would have constituted a wild forest corridor running through a wilderness area.

And setting such a precedent didn’t make State Lands Chair Dick Booth very comfortable.

“I think it’s a great idea; using what was a road for a bike corridor,” he said. “But it raises some hard question about future decisions regarding wilderness decisions. What it amounts to is a wild forest corridor through the West Canada Wilderness. That will be the result.”

Booth proposed a change to the plan that he said would change the legal aspect of the plan but not its actual implementation. His plan would see two separate wilderness areas created.

“A wild forest corridor between two wilderness areas is conceptually a different thing than a wild forest corridor running through a wilderness area,” he said. “But on the ground they will be the same thing.”

The amended Moose River Plain proposal unanimously passed state lands.

But the increased complexities of Booth’s proposed changes didn’t set well with everyone – especially Dan Plumley of the green group Forever Wild.

Plumley argues that the increased management requirements because of the change aren’t realistic.

“On the day when pink slips are being distributed to all DEC regions throughout the state, when we have not even one full ranger watching the Moose River Plains Wild Forest, we now have one unit being divided into four state land units,” he said.

As proposed, Moose River Plains would also feature an intensive use area corridor along the Limkiln-Cedar River Road running through much of the wild forest.

The road is a favorite annual destination for thousands of roadside campers. The plan would also allow continued float plane access to three of the ponds in the massive state holding.

And Plumley argues the state is paying too much attention to the user groups and not enough to the environment.

“No one is speaking about the need to protect the natural resources. There has been no discussion about invasive species or wilderness issues,” he said.

But not all environmental groups are as unhappy with the Moose River Plains proposal. The Adirondack Council, for example, has expressed some concerns with the plan, but said it wasn’t going to fight it.

Local governments are largely pleased with the new plan for Moose River Plains – especially considering the much more restrictive plan first proposed in 2005.

John Frye is supervisor of Inlet.

“I think it is a step towards compromise. Obviously, it’s not what everybody wants, but that’s not a possibility,” he said. “As far as the town of Inlet, local government or the user groups, it’s an appeasement step.”

The state received some 750 comment letters covering all aspects of the proposal.

As part of the creation of the management plan state regulators reached out to local governments, green groups and representatives from numerous outdoor recreational communities, like mountain bikers.

And although saying it isn’t perfect, Indian Lake Supervisor Barry Hutchins believes his concerns were listened to and considered.

“I believe I was actually listened to on this one,” he said. “It’s a nice change.”

The full APA board will consider the amended proposal this morning.


Sounds to me like a comprimise is in the works.
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Old 11-20-2010, 01:16 PM   #31
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so......
what's the word on the road to Indian Lake. Gonna be closed or remain open?
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Old 11-20-2010, 07:40 PM   #32
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So someone told you...I've been an ADK committee chair for over 20 years thru a variety of Exec Directors. The organization is run by an Excecutive Committe of widely varying opinions and points of view and much of the club's work largely staffed by volunteers. Your second hand information is a description of a Club I don't recognize.
Well no, not exactly. But I'll defer to your first-hand experience.
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Old 11-21-2010, 11:33 AM   #33
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where dose the money come from for the trail maintinance and the changes being made in these areas . is this supported by the new york sports man fund and revenue generated by sporting licences fee's . got to ask because everything seems to be about funding these days
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Old 11-21-2010, 12:48 PM   #34
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where dose the money come from for the trail maintinance and the changes being made in these areas . is this supported by the new york sports man fund and revenue generated by sporting licences fee's . got to ask because everything seems to be about funding these days
We all contribute. The money comes from tax dollars (residents and then visitors paying taxes on gas, lodging, etc), sportsman fees and volunteers doing Lean-to & trail adoption.

There are probably a zillion sources; I've touched on only a few no doubt.
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Old 11-21-2010, 01:10 PM   #35
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We all contribute. The money comes from tax dollars (residents and then visitors paying taxes on gas, lodging, etc), sportsman fees and volunteers doing Lean-to & trail adoption.

There are probably a zillion sources; I've touched on only a few no doubt.
But I must ask Are the sportsmen paying twice? Once in taxes and then sporting licenses.
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Old 11-21-2010, 02:57 PM   #36
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Perhaps they are. However, they are not alone:

As a visitor to New Hampshire, I not only pay taxes for the upkeep of National forests, but I have to pay for a parking permit as well.

As an ADK member, I pay dues. I also have to pay to park at ADK Loj.

I also believe Keene Valley residents must pay to park at the Garden.

In NYS, local gov'ts have the right to charge higher property taxes to people who own property, but don't actually live there.

It's an unfair world out there.
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Old 11-21-2010, 05:49 PM   #37
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the sportsman are taking a big hit paying twice for sure . Add up the $100 license fees for a full license and the season select licenses wow ! we have been complaining about licenses fees for a long time but they just go up and up. some day the state will charge a fee for all state trail access a small fee at first to help offset repair and staffing and S A R costs for all hikers then slowly it will go up soon it will double in price yearly and that seems to be how the state will do it a little at a time. Its all weights and measurers state tips the scale heavy one way and we all have to level it from the pocket.
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Old 11-21-2010, 05:59 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post
But I must ask Are the sportsmen paying twice? Once in taxes and then sporting licenses.
Hmm, curious. By that reasoning, are people who have no children in school but are paying taxes for that being taxed unjustly?

And the people who are not paying the sportsman fees are not hunting or fishing. So does all the money for wildlife management and stream restocking come solely from the sportsman fees or are some of my tax dollars being used to pay for your enjoyment?

It's a two edged sword.

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Old 11-21-2010, 08:52 PM   #39
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Angry

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Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
Hmm, curious. By that reasoning, are people who have no children in school but are paying taxes for that being taxed unjustly?

And the people who are not paying the sportsman fees are not hunting or fishing. So does all the money for wildlife management and stream restocking come solely from the sportsman fees or are some of my tax dollars being used to pay for your enjoyment?

It's a two edged sword.

Hawk
Hawk once again you miss the point or misrepresent what was meant.

Originally Posted by dundee
We all contribute. The money comes from tax dollars (residents and then visitors paying taxes on gas, lodging, etc), sportsman fees and volunteers doing Lean-to & trail adoption.

My question is do we as sportsmen pay for our license fee as well as taxes? Are hikers REQUIRED to pay a fee for trails as well as pay taxes Although many do contribute in other ways. Do canoest pay a fee for the use of our launches or parking other then taxes?

Sporting License sales by county


ALBANY Total 37,838 $1,033,420.84
ALLEGANY Total 15,672 $470,801.80
BRONX Total 7,153 $111,863.00
BROOME Total 42,505 $1,366,790.40
CATTARAUGUS Total 23,427 $736,719.12
CAYUGA Total 25,793 $712,619.68
CHAUTAUQUA Total 43,695 $1,538,563.40
CHEMUNG Total 20,037 $616,474.12
CHENANGO Total 17,962 $584,907.68
CLINTON Total 21,608 $749,429.67
COLUMBIA Total 12,293 $411,561.40
CORTLAND Total 17,429 $514,165.12
DELAWARE Total 17,942 $642,148.84
DUTCHESS Total 32,707 $883,471.12
ERIE Total 110,909 $2,940,525.36
ESSEX Total 12,963 $442,073.84
FRANKLIN Total 17,156 $473,259.56
FULTON Total 13,423 $376,421.68
GENESEE Total 16,824 $412,825.12
GREENE Total 10,864 $305,893.28
HAMILTON Total 2,844 $104,134.28
HERKIMER Total 17,986 $532,263.28
JEFFERSON Total 41,863 $1,192,462.80
KINGS Total 24,293 $506,229.30
LEWIS Total 12,226 $355,666.28
LIVINGSTON Total 18,571 $460,794.00
MADISON Total 15,836 $431,883.84
MONROE Total 73,785 $1,919,945.56
MONTGOMERY Total 10,327 $283,497.56
NASSAU Total 47,457 $1,021,496.31
NEW YORK Total 1,809 $39,615.10
NIAGARA Total 37,137 $949,498.84
ONEIDA Total 45,267 $1,283,323.48
ONONDAGA Total 56,846 $1,600,156.40
ONTARIO Total 29,341 $768,211.56
ORANGE Total 50,923 $1,485,883.40
ORLEANS Total 13,787 $368,995.28
OSWEGO Total 59,911 $1,963,389.68
OTSEGO Total 16,927 $498,420.96
PUTNAM Total 5,259 $170,339.28
QUEENS Total 23,229 $465,132.00
RENSSELAER Total 21,664 $702,970.68
RICHMOND Total 7,490 $163,839.00
ROCKLAND Total 19,200 $824,323.28
SARATOGA Total 29,606 $845,489.84
SCHENECTADY Total 13,735 $362,115.56
SCHOHARIE Total 12,839 $407,410.84
SCHUYLER Total 9,167 $283,654.40
SENECA Total 10,511 $214,157.28
ST LAWRENCE Total 41,280 $1,177,019.80
STEUBEN Total 38,706 $1,265,784.68
SUFFOLK Total 80,950 $1,710,021.33
SULLIVAN Total 22,273 $763,934.84
TIOGA Total 10,741 $347,918.84
TOMPKINS Total 14,825 $438,402.84
ULSTER Total 30,696 $837,390.56
unknown county Total 120,087 $4,542,313.00
WARREN Total 23,418 $791,816.12
WASHINGTON Total 11,149 $400,865.56
WAYNE Total 24,648 $616,622.84
WESTCHESTER Total 32,643 $865,243.10
WYOMING Total 11,499 $292,151.40
YATES Total 6,725 $170,974.68



Grand Total 1,717,676 $49,749,694.69



Now
Res Trail Supporter Patch
197 $985.00
NR Trail Supporter Patch
26 $130.00
I Support Conservation Fund
1,612 $1,612.00

I think the question you should be is some of their money supporting my hiking endevors.
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Old 11-21-2010, 11:58 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post
Hawk once again you miss the point or misrepresent what was meant.

Originally Posted by dundee
We all contribute. The money comes from tax dollars (residents and then visitors paying taxes on gas, lodging, etc), sportsman fees and volunteers doing Lean-to & trail adoption.

My question is do we as sportsmen pay for our license fee as well as taxes? Are hikers REQUIRED to pay a fee for trails as well as pay taxes Although many do contribute in other ways. Do canoest pay a fee for the use of our launches or parking other then taxes?

Sporting License sales by county


ALBANY Total 37,838 $1,033,420.84
ALLEGANY Total 15,672 $470,801.80
BRONX Total 7,153 $111,863.00
BROOME Total 42,505 $1,366,790.40
CATTARAUGUS Total 23,427 $736,719.12
CAYUGA Total 25,793 $712,619.68
CHAUTAUQUA Total 43,695 $1,538,563.40
CHEMUNG Total 20,037 $616,474.12
CHENANGO Total 17,962 $584,907.68
CLINTON Total 21,608 $749,429.67
COLUMBIA Total 12,293 $411,561.40
CORTLAND Total 17,429 $514,165.12
DELAWARE Total 17,942 $642,148.84
DUTCHESS Total 32,707 $883,471.12
ERIE Total 110,909 $2,940,525.36
ESSEX Total 12,963 $442,073.84
FRANKLIN Total 17,156 $473,259.56
FULTON Total 13,423 $376,421.68
GENESEE Total 16,824 $412,825.12
GREENE Total 10,864 $305,893.28
HAMILTON Total 2,844 $104,134.28
HERKIMER Total 17,986 $532,263.28
JEFFERSON Total 41,863 $1,192,462.80
KINGS Total 24,293 $506,229.30
LEWIS Total 12,226 $355,666.28
LIVINGSTON Total 18,571 $460,794.00
MADISON Total 15,836 $431,883.84
MONROE Total 73,785 $1,919,945.56
MONTGOMERY Total 10,327 $283,497.56
NASSAU Total 47,457 $1,021,496.31
NEW YORK Total 1,809 $39,615.10
NIAGARA Total 37,137 $949,498.84
ONEIDA Total 45,267 $1,283,323.48
ONONDAGA Total 56,846 $1,600,156.40
ONTARIO Total 29,341 $768,211.56
ORANGE Total 50,923 $1,485,883.40
ORLEANS Total 13,787 $368,995.28
OSWEGO Total 59,911 $1,963,389.68
OTSEGO Total 16,927 $498,420.96
PUTNAM Total 5,259 $170,339.28
QUEENS Total 23,229 $465,132.00
RENSSELAER Total 21,664 $702,970.68
RICHMOND Total 7,490 $163,839.00
ROCKLAND Total 19,200 $824,323.28
SARATOGA Total 29,606 $845,489.84
SCHENECTADY Total 13,735 $362,115.56
SCHOHARIE Total 12,839 $407,410.84
SCHUYLER Total 9,167 $283,654.40
SENECA Total 10,511 $214,157.28
ST LAWRENCE Total 41,280 $1,177,019.80
STEUBEN Total 38,706 $1,265,784.68
SUFFOLK Total 80,950 $1,710,021.33
SULLIVAN Total 22,273 $763,934.84
TIOGA Total 10,741 $347,918.84
TOMPKINS Total 14,825 $438,402.84
ULSTER Total 30,696 $837,390.56
unknown county Total 120,087 $4,542,313.00
WARREN Total 23,418 $791,816.12
WASHINGTON Total 11,149 $400,865.56
WAYNE Total 24,648 $616,622.84
WESTCHESTER Total 32,643 $865,243.10
WYOMING Total 11,499 $292,151.40
YATES Total 6,725 $170,974.68



Grand Total 1,717,676 $49,749,694.69



Now
Res Trail Supporter Patch
197 $985.00
NR Trail Supporter Patch
26 $130.00
I Support Conservation Fund
1,612 $1,612.00

I think the question you should be is some of their money supporting my hiking endevors.
No misrepresentation at all. henters and fishermen do not have to pay any fees to hike, do they? Hikers who do hunt or fish do not have to pay the sportsman fees.

Where is the misrepresentation? I agree there is some, but it's not from me. No one forces you to hunt or fish, if you do, you have to pay a fee. You have to hike in most cases to hunt or fish but you don't have to pay any extra for hiking.

And I asked if all the money that goes for the game management and the stocking of streams comes from sportsman fees or if other funds (tax dollars) are used for that. What about people who don't hike, paddle, ski, climb, hunt or fish? Their tax dollars are paying for the maintenance, etc.

Many of the trails todays are maintained by volunteers, Rangers are responsible for checking and policing hunting and fishing and that actually requires a little more effort then just patroling the trails for hikers.

I am all in favor of licenses for hikers. I think we should all be responsible for supporting our recreational endeavors.

Hawk
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