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Old 11-24-2010, 11:46 PM   #61
DSettahr
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Originally Posted by ALGonquin Bob View Post
Other than a small paid staff and trail maintenence crews (all non-voting), ADK is comprised of thousands of volunteers. The "ADK" you are likely referring to, the decision-making people, is the board of directors, a group of volunteer members representing all of the club's chapters throughout the state, as well as at-large members. Directors typically report back to their chapters and get input from them, so yes, ADK communicates with its member base. The BoD is a constant number of volunteers, but the individuals change from year to year. We are people who care about the same things that you care about. In fact, we are you, we are all of us. ADK members don't always agree on those important issues, but New York State is certaintly a better place because of that organization.
Thanks.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:53 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post
Hawk once again you miss the point or misrepresent what was meant.

Originally Posted by dundee
We all contribute. The money comes from tax dollars (residents and then visitors paying taxes on gas, lodging, etc), sportsman fees and volunteers doing Lean-to & trail adoption.

My question is do we as sportsmen pay for our license fee as well as taxes? Are hikers REQUIRED to pay a fee for trails as well as pay taxes Although many do contribute in other ways. Do canoest pay a fee for the use of our launches or parking other then taxes?

Sporting License sales by county


ALBANY Total 37,838 $1,033,420.84
ALLEGANY Total 15,672 $470,801.80
BRONX Total 7,153 $111,863.00
BROOME Total 42,505 $1,366,790.40
CATTARAUGUS Total 23,427 $736,719.12
CAYUGA Total 25,793 $712,619.68
CHAUTAUQUA Total 43,695 $1,538,563.40
CHEMUNG Total 20,037 $616,474.12
CHENANGO Total 17,962 $584,907.68
CLINTON Total 21,608 $749,429.67
COLUMBIA Total 12,293 $411,561.40
CORTLAND Total 17,429 $514,165.12
DELAWARE Total 17,942 $642,148.84
DUTCHESS Total 32,707 $883,471.12
ERIE Total 110,909 $2,940,525.36
ESSEX Total 12,963 $442,073.84
FRANKLIN Total 17,156 $473,259.56
FULTON Total 13,423 $376,421.68
GENESEE Total 16,824 $412,825.12
GREENE Total 10,864 $305,893.28
HAMILTON Total 2,844 $104,134.28
HERKIMER Total 17,986 $532,263.28
JEFFERSON Total 41,863 $1,192,462.80
KINGS Total 24,293 $506,229.30
LEWIS Total 12,226 $355,666.28
LIVINGSTON Total 18,571 $460,794.00
MADISON Total 15,836 $431,883.84
MONROE Total 73,785 $1,919,945.56
MONTGOMERY Total 10,327 $283,497.56
NASSAU Total 47,457 $1,021,496.31
NEW YORK Total 1,809 $39,615.10
NIAGARA Total 37,137 $949,498.84
ONEIDA Total 45,267 $1,283,323.48
ONONDAGA Total 56,846 $1,600,156.40
ONTARIO Total 29,341 $768,211.56
ORANGE Total 50,923 $1,485,883.40
ORLEANS Total 13,787 $368,995.28
OSWEGO Total 59,911 $1,963,389.68
OTSEGO Total 16,927 $498,420.96
PUTNAM Total 5,259 $170,339.28
QUEENS Total 23,229 $465,132.00
RENSSELAER Total 21,664 $702,970.68
RICHMOND Total 7,490 $163,839.00
ROCKLAND Total 19,200 $824,323.28
SARATOGA Total 29,606 $845,489.84
SCHENECTADY Total 13,735 $362,115.56
SCHOHARIE Total 12,839 $407,410.84
SCHUYLER Total 9,167 $283,654.40
SENECA Total 10,511 $214,157.28
ST LAWRENCE Total 41,280 $1,177,019.80
STEUBEN Total 38,706 $1,265,784.68
SUFFOLK Total 80,950 $1,710,021.33
SULLIVAN Total 22,273 $763,934.84
TIOGA Total 10,741 $347,918.84
TOMPKINS Total 14,825 $438,402.84
ULSTER Total 30,696 $837,390.56
unknown county Total 120,087 $4,542,313.00
WARREN Total 23,418 $791,816.12
WASHINGTON Total 11,149 $400,865.56
WAYNE Total 24,648 $616,622.84
WESTCHESTER Total 32,643 $865,243.10
WYOMING Total 11,499 $292,151.40
YATES Total 6,725 $170,974.68



Grand Total 1,717,676 $49,749,694.69



Now
Res Trail Supporter Patch
197 $985.00
NR Trail Supporter Patch
26 $130.00
I Support Conservation Fund
1,612 $1,612.00

I think the question you should be is some of their money supporting my hiking endevors.
Got some information and a link from someone who is involved in license sales for the DEC.

If yo look at the total of State Funds that came from Sporting license and Permit fees. it totals 33.9 Million. The amount of funds that was spent by the state for Fish, Wildlife and marine resources was 40.7 Million dollars. So in fact, the fees did not cover the amount of expenditures for those services.

So, i think that stating that the sportsman fees cover a lot more then what the sportsmen use is inaccurate.

I would guess that probaly more then any other group, they pay a higher percentage of their own way, but their contributions do not pay everyone elses way.

The link to the manual is here.

The breakdown of the funds allocation is on page 74.

Theres lots of useful information there for everyone.

hawk
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:48 PM   #63
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I didn't say it paid for it all

My question is do we as sportsmen pay for our license fee as well as taxes? Are hikers REQUIRED to pay a fee for trails as well as pay taxes Although many do contribute in other ways. Do canoest pay a fee for the use of our launches or parking other then taxes?
I think you mean pg 72 74 is sunrise sun set tables

Now let's answer the question instead of going off on a tangent of your own.

"If yo look at the total of State Funds that came from Sporting license and Permit fees. it totals 33.9 Million. The amount of funds that was spent by the state for Fish, Wildlife and marine resources was 40.7 Million dollars. So in fact, the fees did not cover the amount of expenditures for those services."

2.9 for law enforcement 25.8 for fish wildlife resources and 2.9 for Operational services .7 for educationand 5.8 for management and budget services??

This doesn't include any revenue that is collected from the Pitman robertson Act
Sponsored by Senator Key Pittman of Nevada and Congressman A. Willis Robertson of Virginia and signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt on Sept. 2, 1937, the Pittman-Robertson Act created a 10% excise tax on sporting arms and ammunition. A few years later the tax became 11%.

The tens of millions of dollars generated by Pittman-Robertson each year were mandated to go back into state and local organizations to increase game populations, expand habitat and train hunters. As the money kept piling up, a repeal bill was drawn to relieve sportsmen from the financial burden of the excise tax. However, because dramatic results could be seen nationwide, sportsmen insisted on keeping the tax in place.

http://www.nraila.net/issues/FactShe...ad.aspx?ID=103

Lets see some links supporting your facts. Is this 40.7 million dollars spent on just sporting people or does it include inspections of dumps, fees for looking for lost hikers, Repairing canoe only access areas etc.

This is the DEC's sales site for 2009
http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html

Last edited by adkman12986; 11-29-2010 at 05:06 PM..
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Old 11-29-2010, 05:39 PM   #64
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Sporting licenses go into the state's Conservation Fund. The Conservation Fund is then used to pay for a variety of things. You can read the annual reports of the Conservation Fund Advisory Board here, which is where all the information below comes from.

There are several things to consider: first, more than just sporting licenses go into the Conservation Fund. People who check the Return a Gift to Wildlife box on their tax returns, various fines, timber royalties, etc, all go there as well. Sporting licenses are by far the largest contributor, however -- in the last report, ~$40 million came from licenses and DMP's, while around $1.5M came from other sources.

Second, the Conservation Fund is not the sole source of funding for most fish & wildlife-related expenditures in the state. For example, according to the latest report (2008-09), total direct expenditures for the Division of Fish, Wildlife and Marine Resources were $57,354,396. $29M came from the Conservation Fund, $10.5M came from other state sources including the General Fund, and $17.7M came from the Federal government. Indirect expenditures similarly were broken down into various sources.

What direct and indirect funding includes is in the report, but not in exhaustive detail of course. No mention of searching for lost hikers or general trail maintenance, sorry. Some amount of boat launch maintenance is included, most likely because fishermen, hunters, and trappers all use these facilities, even canoe-only ones. No indication what percentage we're talking though. Of course there are things in there only tangentially related, such as publishing the Conservationist magazine (which itself has other sources of revenue).

You seem to be really interested in this topic, so if you want to know more it's probably worth giving your local DEC office a call, or better yet, the Conservation Fund Advisory Board has a phone number on the page I linked above. The best that most of us can do here is google sleuthing, you'll likely have better results going to the source.
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Old 11-29-2010, 06:22 PM   #65
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[QUOTE=adkman12986;159286]I didn't say it paid for it all

My question is do we as sportsmen pay for our license fee as well as taxes? Are hikers REQUIRED to pay a fee for trails as well as pay taxes Although many do contribute in other ways. Do canoest pay a fee for the use of our launches or parking other then taxes?
I think you mean pg 72 74 is sunrise sun set tables

Now let's answer the question instead of going off on a tangent of your own.

"If yo look at the total of State Funds that came from Sporting license and Permit fees. it totals 33.9 Million. The amount of funds that was spent by the state for Fish, Wildlife and marine resources was 40.7 Million dollars. So in fact, the fees did not cover the amount of expenditures for those services."

2.9 for law enforcement 25.8 for fish wildlife resources and 2.9 for Operational services .7 for educationand 5.8 for management and budget services??
[/B]

Look again. Those are taken out of the original amount of collected fees and cover only a portion of what those fees are overall. And those combined with the funds that go into the sportsman fund do not eqaul the amount paid for the DEC services for fish and game. And if you add the totals for enforcement, pr, etc then the percentage paid is less.

So, to make it clear. ALL of the FEES collected from Sportsmen do not cover the full amount that goes into the wildlife funds nor any of the other services.
[B]

I'm tired of people whining about the fees the pay for the privledges they are given as a justification that they should somehow be treated differently.

I pay for many services that many other people don't. It's the cost of doing business and it's going up for everyone.

Your post tried to make it appear that sportsmenn were footing the bill for all of us. You're not. I don't pay any sportsmen fees so i can't hunt or fish. Seems fair to me.
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Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post
This doesn't include any revenue that is collected from the Pitman robertson Act
Sponsored by Senator Key Pittman of Nevada and Congressman A. Willis Robertson of Virginia and signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt on Sept. 2, 1937, the Pittman-Robertson Act created a 10% excise tax on sporting arms and ammunition. A few years later the tax became 11%.

The tens of millions of dollars generated by Pittman-Robertson each year were mandated to go back into state and local organizations to increase game populations, expand habitat and train hunters. As the money kept piling up, a repeal bill was drawn to relieve sportsmen from the financial burden of the excise tax. However, because dramatic results could be seen nationwide, sportsmen insisted on keeping the tax in place.

http://www.nraila.net/issues/FactShe...ad.aspx?ID=103

Lets see some links supporting your facts. Is this 40.7 million dollars spent on just sporting people or does it include inspections of dumps, fees for looking for lost hikers, Repairing canoe only access areas etc.
Err the lionk I have clearly shows what i oposted as far as the distribution of fees and the link is an official one that i got from one of the supervisors of fees and licenses for the DEC.

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Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post

This is the DEC's sales site for 2009
http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:26 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by dundee
We all contribute. The money comes from tax dollars (residents and then visitors paying taxes on gas, lodging, etc), sportsman fees and volunteers doing Lean-to & trail adoption.

There are probably a zillion sources; I've touched on only a few no doubt.


I added

But I must ask Are the sportsmen paying twice? Once in taxes and then sporting licenses.

You added

Where does it say that I stated that the sporting license fee pays for it all?
So, to make it clear. ALL of the FEES collected from Sportsmen do not cover the full amount that goes into the wildlife funds nor any of the other services.
[B]




So to make it clear to you I didn't say it did.



"Err the lionk I have clearly shows what i oposted as far as the distribution of fees and the link is an official one that i got from one of the supervisors of fees and licenses for the DEC. "

The link takes you to the silabus Pg 74 is the sunrise sun set tables I have one in front of me now.

"I'm tired of people whining about the fees the pay for the privledges they are given as a justification that they should somehow be treated differently."

And I am tired of people winning and crying about how much it cost to do business. It is your choice to own one not mine.

Just a side note and not to be an a$$ I thought that native Americans didn't have to have a hunting or fishing license as long as they hunted or fished on territory land. I am not trying to start an argument but am courious.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:30 PM   #67
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Just a side note and not to be an a$$ I thought that native Americans didn't have to have a hunting or fishing license as long as they hunted or fished on territory land. I am not trying to start an argument but am courious.
It's true, BUT you have to jump through hoops if you want to take advantage of it. First you need a card from the government proving that you are Indian. (Isn't it funny that indignous Americans are the only ones who need that card to prove who they are?0 In order to get that card, if you wanted it, you would need to be a menber of a registered tribe and on it's rolls, so if your mother and father were members of a tribe and moved off the tribal lands, then you would not be an enrolled member. If you WERE an enrolled member of a tribe AND you had your BIA card, then you would need to make a special application in order to be able to get a permit to hunt and fish for free. Incidently you need to go through this same process to possess raptor feathers.

In many areas of the country, this whole question of free hunting and fishing to American Indians is a sore point with whites who don't feel that even though we were promised these rights by treaty because we were the original stewards of the land that we should be treated any different from whites.

So, when I did hunt and fish I always paid for licenses, except when doing so on reservation land which is not under the Juristiction of the states since it is recognized as an Independent Nation by the Federal Government and international law.

I lost my taste for hunting in Southeast Asia and would only fish if I needed to provide food for myself.

Hawk
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:08 PM   #68
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40 million straight from the cash cow. those who enjoy the outdoors and wish to hunt and fish. That tips the scale seriously! big dollars in this day and age . as long as our contribution as sportsmen and women is more then 75% of the budget to operate . Then we are paying other peoples bills . Part of the question to be answered is why do we continue to pay more and have more and more access limited to many areas in the blue line over the past years . Has the human foot print been so bad in these areas we need to remove vehicle access and add length to the trails to preserve . Im a little lost here . Take more give less then give more to something some place else. figured it out !! Budget will almost never cover costs to operate because if you have enough to operate the you cant ask for more of a budjet the next year . Most remaining dollars are spent quickly at the end of the year . This helps to assure you will get money next year and not suffer cuts in budget due to surplus at years end. Surplus then they will think you need less and you will get less next year . This is part of the problem
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:19 PM   #69
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40 million straight from the cash cow. those who enjoy the outdoors and wish to hunt and fish. That tips the scale seriously! big dollars in this day and age . as long as our contribution as sportsmen and women is more then 75% of the budget to operate . Then we are paying other peoples bills . Part of the question to be answered is why do we continue to pay more and have more and more access limited to many areas in the blue line over the past years . Has the human foot print been so bad in these areas we need to remove vehicle access and add length to the trails to preserve . Im a little lost here . Take more give less then give more to something some place else. figured it out !! Budget will almost never cover costs to operate because if you have enough to operate the you cant ask for more of a budjet the next year . Most remaining dollars are spent quickly at the end of the year . This helps to assure you will get money next year and not suffer cuts in budget due to surplus at years end. Surplus then they will think you need less and you will get less next year . This is part of the problem
You could change it all by boycotting and rfusing to purchase licenses and for go fishing and hunting.

I see thing a little different. Since Sportsman fees do not cover the full amount of the expenditures that are exclusively for sportsmen as well as keeping in mind that since a good deal of enforcement fees are aimed toward checking hunters and fishermen, then you are not fully self supporting and you certainly don't pay other peoples ways.

in the meantime you have the same benefits of the woods as all other enthusiests such as hikers, climbers, paddlers, etc for which your tax dollars as well as theirs are used.

So your tax dollars go for the same as the rest of us and the sportsmen fees pay for your special interests, And since they do not cover the costs in their entirety then you are being subsidized by people who do not engage in those activities.

It's all in the perspective.
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:34 PM   #70
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You could change it all by boycotting and rfusing to purchase licenses and for go fishing and hunting.

I see thing a little different. Since Sportsman fees do not cover the full amount of the expenditures that are exclusively for sportsmen as well as keeping in mind that since a good deal of enforcement fees are aimed toward checking hunters and fishermen, then you are not fully self supporting and you certainly don't pay other peoples ways.

in the meantime you have the same benefits of the woods as all other enthusiests such as hikers, climbers, paddlers, etc for which your tax dollars as well as theirs are used.

So your tax dollars go for the same as the rest of us and the sportsmen fees pay for your special interests, And since they do not cover the costs in their entirety then you are being subsidized by people who do not engage in those activities.

It's all in the perspective.

Or you could say the opposite....

Why do you assume the costs of policing the "sportsman" are higher than policing the hikers,.campground campers etc?


Seems the Rangers/DECO have multiple groups of recreational users to police, and only the "sportsmen" are paying specifically.....

They are out there anyway, and deer season only last for a portion of the year....the heck with small game and trapping... fishing is biger... but it is multiple enforcement....
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:45 PM   #71
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Or you could say the opposite....

Why do you assume the costs of policing the "sportsman" are higher than policing the hikers,.campground campers etc?


Seems the Rangers/DECO have multiple groups of recreational users to police, and only the "sportsmen" are paying specifically.....

They are out there anyway, and deer season only last for a portion of the year....the heck with small game and trapping... fishing is biger... but it is multiple enforcement....
There will never be a happy medium here. Hawk has some great points as well as you and 40dog. DEC doesn't only check hikers hunters fishermen etc. but check landfills, inspect pesticide spraying, ◦Stormwater Discharge General Permits
◦Oil, Gas and Solution Salt Well Drilling Permit
◦Waste Transporter and Low Level Radioactive Waste Transporter Permits
and a ton of other things. Maybe our question shouldn't be directed at hikers vs sportsmen but at Albany and ask them why we are paying for these services, and not being taken out of the general fund instead of the Conservation Fund.
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Old 11-30-2010, 10:07 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post
There will never be a happy medium here. Hawk has some great points as well as you and 40dog. DEC doesn't only check hikers hunters fishermen etc. but check landfills, inspect pesticide spraying, ◦Stormwater Discharge General Permits
◦Oil, Gas and Solution Salt Well Drilling Permit
◦Waste Transporter and Low Level Radioactive Waste Transporter Permits
and a ton of other things. Maybe our question shouldn't be directed at hikers vs sportsmen but at Albany and ask them why we are paying for these services, and not being taken out of the general fund instead of the Conservation Fund.
Do you have a reference/citation that says these items come out of the Conservation Fund?

Under state finance law, the Conservation Fund is only supposed to be used "for the care, management, protection and enlargement of the fish, game and shell fish resources of the state and for the promotion of public fishing and shooting". If that money is indeed being used for the items you mention, it sure sounds like a violation of state law to (non-lawyer) me, and should be brought to the attention of the Comptroller's office.

The vast majority of DEC's budget DOES come from the general fund, the environmental protection fund, the federal government, or wherever else. The DEC's entire budget is over a billion dollars a year, while sporting licenses bring in $40 million.

And as I said before, even for the programs the Conservation Fund is SUPPOSED to support, only half of the funding comes from the Conservation Fund itself.

Last edited by colden46; 11-30-2010 at 10:24 PM.. Reason: added link to budget
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:11 AM   #73
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And just who watches this. Money is transfered back and fourth between budegts all the time. OMRDD is a prime example of how it works. No money today and hundreds of thousands tomorrow. Worked there seen that almost every year. 2 years ago a Center was 15 Million over budget Where did the money come from, granted maybe not out of DEC funds but it had to come from someone elses budget.
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Old 12-01-2010, 01:49 PM   #74
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i believe the state tends to borrow from the sportmans fund when needed . to boycott the license fee for even a year would have terrible effect on the fund. A rise in illegal hunting is just what groups like peta and others would like to see to discredit the hunters and fishermen and make them out to be the criminals they are not. Any time you take fish or wildlife with out a license you are adding to the problem . As folks step up on there soap boxes and scream for more law enforcement and tougher fines you add all sorts of costs into the mix .More costs than the budget can handle and losss of services in other areas to offset the costs. Chain gang labor is a great way to cut costs for up keep and repair. Watkins glen state park has used local correctional labor many inmates are just a few month from release and considered low flight risk . They have re constructed hundreds of feet of stone wall and bulk heads from the c c c era and played a great role in the historic conservation of areas in the park . there are many ways to lessen the burden in ny and the adks . we foot the bill as tax payers for inmates 30 - 40 thousand a year in some cases per inmate. It would seem right they should be paying for the three hot meals and the bed they are sleeping in to, just like the rest of us . County inmates should do county work and state inmates should do state work . Imagine each inmate picks up 5# of trash a week .Do the math , better forget the math and picture the road sides and trails almost clear of daily litter. The cry for volunteer labor would be less and the improvements great. No problems just solutions the state needs to think out of the box. do what you want with my license fee but dont take it and tell me mid season you are reducing services or access to areas because they have not spent wise. Many in state positions keep there mouths shut afraid that he who makes trouble within there own house shall inherit the wind . Blow the whistle loose your job . Please dont badger me for the quote but i think it sums up how many below management see there positions in the state employment sector. Cut all state raises for five years stop rewarding people for poor leadership and start making the general employed state workers police the command . If they all want to be rewarded they have to stop the Bull and take responsibility . The state loves to mask there intentions with re classification weather it is in the adks or the beaches on LI. all areas are effected. Its sad but the state is run by alot of crooked crooks thinking only of what they get when there service is thru.
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:28 PM   #75
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The last time I camped at Sundown Wild Forest primitive campsites (Catskills) a crew from a prison came through in the morning and picked up trash, cleaned out fire rings, etc.
What a great idea. I'll bet they actually enjoyed being out; the weather was beautiful.
Are the prison systems involved in maintenance in the Adirondacks?
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Old 12-01-2010, 09:46 PM   #76
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The Old Forge Fire Dept and the Town of Webb both use prisoners from Oneida Correctional. They have also been used at the historical asoc.

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Are the prison systems involved in maintenance in the Adirondacks?
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:41 AM   #77
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Several years ago, I encountered a crew from Camp Gabriels doing maintenance work at a trailhead along Keese Mills Road near Paul Smiths. That minimum security prison is closed now. Are there other minimum security facilities in the Adirondacks?
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Old 12-02-2010, 06:47 AM   #78
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Its nice to see tax dollars at work. More correctional programs such as the ones mentioned would be a great help to the state . it would be nice to see some numbers from the state on the man hours from correctional labor and areas its applied to. why are the numbers lost in the system because the hours provided by the correctional labor reduce needed pay hours for state employes.Then having a reducing effect on some budjets. Thats why we dont hear as much and why we as citizens have to dust off our memories realize the possibilities. we can get it done by using the force of people we allready have at our disposal. Some correctional facilities are private the state foots the bill and the facility demands payment for the work services they provide again we pall pay twice. Is that a surprise
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Old 12-02-2010, 08:23 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danceswithflies View Post
Several years ago, I encountered a crew from Camp Gabriels doing maintenance work at a trailhead along Keese Mills Road near Paul Smiths. That minimum security prison is closed now. Are there other minimum security facilities in the Adirondacks?
I know that in the town of Moriah east of North Hudson there's a "shock troops" facility for younger guys. They have done alot of trail work and built a leanto in the Hammond Pond wild forest. I'm not sure if they still take these guys out to do that kind of stuff anymore, but they were fairly active with that kind of work in the late 80's & 90's.
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Old 12-02-2010, 09:40 AM   #80
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I think the best solution all around is to fire everyone in middle management, round up half as many wino's to replace them and cut the salaries in half.

That will not only save money, it will probably run much more efficiently as well.

Come to think of it, we should do that with the elected officials as well.
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