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Old 03-11-2013, 10:32 AM   #1
Old Rivers
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Why?

In areas where snowmobiles can be used, (such as rails-trails) why can't ATV's be used? Both are motorized vehicles. Is $$$ the only reason?
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:11 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Old Rivers View Post
In areas where snowmobiles can be used, (such as rails-trails) why can't ATV's be used? Both are motorized vehicles. Is $$$ the only reason?
I will assume this is not a troll post.
The reasons should be obvious. Although snowmobiles do their share of environmental and aesthetic damage, the argument is that the snow/ice cover limits the most egregious examples as one reason why snowmobiles are allowed and ATVs are not.

https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/s...running-amuck/

http://atfiles.org/files/pdf/ohvbibliogVT00.pdf

http://glorietamesa.org/ATVreport.pdf

http://www.gehwa.org/ORV%20Documents...dirondacks.pdf

http://www.protectadks.org/2013/03/p...rest-preserve/

The argument for increased intrusion of snowmobiles into wildlands is primarily based on trading the environment for locality economics. The same for ATVs. But both classes of riders have a number of participants with huge disregard for current laws and for the environment itself. On the road that I live on there are clearly posted road signs that absolutely forbid the use of ATVs. That doesn't stop them from "sneaking through" at a high rate of speed, even around blind corners and hills, often very dangerously occupying the center of the road. Many are unhelmeted and unlicensed, both youth and adults. I know, I know, a few doesn't represent all, but how many does it take before the damage is done? Such illegal activity clearly forms my opinion of not allowing expanded use.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:15 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Old Rivers View Post
In areas where snowmobiles can be used, (such as rails-trails) why can't ATV's be used? Both are motorized vehicles. Is $$$ the only reason?
In the winter when there is snow on the trail you have the issue of speed. Sleds tend to be faster and slow moving ATVs are a hazard. Also sleds have better floatation on soft snow and ATVs tend to sink, cause ruts etc.Once the ruts freeze up it take grooming to return the trail to smooth condition.

In the summer ATVs tear up and rut the trail base, destroy vegetation, while sleds generally are above the vegetation on a snow base.

I've seen pararel tracks in Canada with sleds and ATVs sharing but separate,usually on unplowed roads with a firm base,and only for a short distance.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:29 PM   #4
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As others have said, the snow cover tends to minimize snowmobile impacts. If you walk down any trail that is a designated snowmobile trail (and used as a hiking trail) in the summer, you'll find very little worn tread. Many snowmobile trails are in better shape even than hiking trails, with less impacts on the soil.

In contrast, ATV trails quickly become rutted, muddy messes. I've been on some trails in the Adirondacks that had been destroyed by ATV use.

Bicycles are banned for the same reason in Wilderness areas. While a bikes impact isn't as bad as an ATV, the mechanical advantage is still enough that bikes can cause significant impacts in the backcountry, so like snowmobiles, they are relegated to Wild Forest areas.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:34 PM   #5
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Not trollong. I don't own an atv but have friends that use them to access back country hunting areas on logging roads and other private leased lands. When used responsibly they leave no trace but I am aware of damage irresponsible slobs can do on them. I wish a compromise could be reached with far left enviromental groups. Atv's can be used responsibly, not for "Riding", but for access and game removal during hunting season and not bother anyone on hiking trails.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Old Rivers View Post
Not trollong. I don't own an atv but have friends that use them to access back country hunting areas on logging roads and other private leased lands. When used responsibly they leave no trace but I am aware of damage irresponsible slobs can do on them. I wish a compromise could be reached with far left enviromental groups. Atv's can be used responsibly, not for "Riding", but for access and game removal during hunting season and not bother anyone on hiking trails.
There's a few other things you have to consider. The logging roads that your friends are using them on have been significantly improved and are far better at handling impacts from wheeled motorized vehicle use than hiking trails are. Also, those roads receive regular maintenance.

Before ATV use could be permitted on a trail on forest preserve lands, that trail would have to undergo significant improvements itself, and receive regular maintenance, all of which would cause the trail to lose quite a bit of its wilderness character and become more like a road.

The intensity of maintenance would also be economically prohibitive- the state has a hard enough time funding maintenance for it's hiking trails. ATV trails would only be an increased burden on an infrastructure that is already stretched thin.

There are old logging roads on state land that could potentially be converted to ATV use... but many of these have been allowed to deteriorate significantly since the state acquired the land, so it would still be prohibitive to adapt them.

And yeah, some of it is politics. For the most part, the snowmobile community has done a much better job at working with the state rather than against it. Otter Lake in the Western Adirondacks is a great example of why ATVs aren't likely to ever be permitted on State Land in the Adirondacks, due to the actions of a few in the ATV community. For years, ATVs have repeatedly flaunted state land use regulations there. They head back there in large crowds of 10-15 vehicles, tear up the ground, and generally just trash the place, leaving a wake of discarded beer cans and fast good wrappers behind. Before there could be any chance of ATV use on state land at all, the ATV community would have to step up, organize, and begin to self-regulate itself far better than it has in the past.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Rivers View Post
Not trollong. I don't own an atv but have friends that use them to access back country hunting areas on logging roads and other private leased lands. When used responsibly they leave no trace but I am aware of damage irresponsible slobs can do on them. I wish a compromise could be reached with far left enviromental groups. Atv's can be used responsibly, not for "Riding", but for access and game removal during hunting season and not bother anyone on hiking trails.
I assume that you mean in the case of a wet or soft trail, not driving the ATV on it at all? That's about the only way to "leave no trace" with an ATV. To argue otherwise has no validity
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:36 PM   #8
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Senseable argument DSettahr. It's always the few slobs that are the reason for most regulations. Still, hard pack roads, especially those that have been used for generations by loggers could be used by responsible atv riders especially if it were restricted to certain times of the year.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:26 PM   #9
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Still, hard pack roads, especially those that have been used for generations by loggers could be used by responsible atv riders especially if it were restricted to certain times of the year.
]

Old Rivers, That makes too much sense. Here's a link for responsible ATV use on trails.

http://treadlightly.org/quick-tips-f...le-atv-riding/

Obviously not all areas are good or even acceptable for ATV use, but to say NO on all state forest land seems unfair. I personally don't own an ATV, but have several friends that do. I've never seen them mud bogging or ripping trails up. All they use them for is hauling people/gear in and out and dragging out deer. Definitely low impact use.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:42 AM   #10
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I don't know where you come up with the "far Left environmental" I myself am pretty conservative as in conservation. I think thats just a insulting key word for any motorized user that doesn't agree with them

1 ATV creates as much noise and destruction as 50 Backpackers

As for rail trails I think any multi-use trail with Atvs is an ....ATV TRAIL.... almost to the exclusion of any other user

I agree with Dsetta Big Otter lake is getting hammered with ATV use

we used to go in as kids in the 60s and stay for a week and fish and hike
we usually hiked in from Thendara it was quiet and pristine, the road in along Otter creek got a bit of use and was rough as hell, but that helped keep the numbers down

But the state had many chances over the years to stem the problem but chose to look the other way. (Like not regulating the distance along the road between trails) Now its too late and now I notice that in the areas I hike the trail markers don't even say "foot trail" anymore, I think in anticipation of things to come

My .02

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Old 03-13-2013, 08:17 AM   #11
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I used the term,"Far left" to describe those groups that refuse to compromise or give an inch. ATV's seem to be the only use left out of "multi use". Lands are purchased by NYS taxpayers for all to use responsibly.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Rivers View Post
I used the term,"Far left" to describe those groups that refuse to compromise or give an inch. ATV's seem to be the only use left out of "multi use". Lands are purchased by NYS taxpayers for all to use responsibly.
And you have used the key phrase: "for ALL to use responsibly". As several of us have been trying to say here, even one irresponsible ATV rider can cause long lasting damage to fragile lands, and there are multiple examples of far more than just one irresponsible user. Even where they are found on hard packed logging roads, that doesn't seem to be off road enough and the muddy side trails become an irresistably inviting draw.

The power of a single ATV to do such damage is amplified many times once one has made its mark. Of course and unfortunately there are irresponsible hikers as well, but none with the damage potential of a rider on a machine inspired by some of the ATV sales commercials seen on TV.

That is why ATVs seem to be (and are) "left out".
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:26 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Old Rivers View Post
I used the term,"Far left" to describe those groups that refuse to compromise or give an inch. ATV's seem to be the only use left out of "multi use". Lands are purchased by NYS taxpayers for all to use responsibly.
I am completely unsympathetic to this argument. Everyone has the legal right to use state lands, but that legal right is not extended to inanimate objects like ATVs. Therefore the ban on ATVs only applies to the machine, not the rider. An ATV is not an extension of one's self, unless we are suggesting that riders are surgically attached to their machines.

A key part of "using state lands responsibly" is to enjoy them for their intended purpose, not as a dirt track.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:18 AM   #14
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I used the term,"Far left" to describe those groups that refuse to compromise or give an inch. ATV's seem to be the only use left out of "multi use". Lands are purchased by NYS taxpayers for all to use responsibly.
All too often the term "far left" or "tree huggers" is used as a derisive description of one who simply disagrees. That's why it's best left out of any reasonable and civil debates.

FWIW, here is myopinion on ATV's. I just don't like them. Of course, I don't like snow mobiles or motorized boats either. Not when I'm in the back country. It's fine where they are needed to transport things over long distances in remote places or rough terrain.

HAving said thay, I am not "far left" or "Anti ATV. I believe that those who enjoy the ATV's should have places where they can enjoy them. And I believe that there are many places where they could be used and I think that we should all support their endeavors to open up appropriate places. On the other hand I think that the motorized crowd should also respect and upport those who want to go to places where there are o motorized vehicles.

Sometimes the motorized crowd can be their own worst enemies. There have been incidents where the ATV crowd has shown up en/mas at public hearings and been antagonistic and threatening (by demeanor) to the others attending the meeting. Many also give the appearance that they are not satisfied with having some places to ride them, but feel that they have a right under the constitution t be free to ride them every where with no regard for anyone else. Montana and Wyoming has thousands of miles of ATV and Snowmobile trails, yet they insist on all of Yellowstone be open to them as well.

So, that is the image that has been created in many peoples minds of ATV owners. Even if a minority that acts in a bad way, the stink \falls on the whle community. Partly because when there is destruction, other ATV owners won't step up and report the culprits and police themselves. And won't step up at pulic meetings when the "meeting Nazis" use their tactics and tell them to stop and that they don't represent the ATV community as a whole.

It might also help it the ATV community convince the manufacturers and dealers that advertisements showing the ATV's ripping up the terrain is not helping the cause.

So, there is what I see as the problem. If those things could be addressed, there might be more support for more ATV trails. As a caveat however, I would add tat I would never be in avor of ATV's in a wilderness area or wild forest. Even when it seems an area is not "being utilized" it' deceiving. Although there may not be any human activity, there will be an abundance of wildlife and plant activity which is one of the reasons we want to designate these areas as wild.

In the post aove, Bill makes he same argument that I have made on this forum before. No ones rights are being denied. Everyone has the right to use the wild forests and wilderness. They just cn't drive certain vehicles in there. Same applies to Yellowstone.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:45 PM   #15
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Lets not forget the noise. One can avoid the trails in an effort to avoid the visual mess, it is a lot harder to avoid that odious, preternatural cancer.

"Soon silence will have passed into legend. Man has turned his back on silence. Day after day he invents machines and devices that increase noise and distract humanity from the essence of life, contemplation, meditation."
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:30 PM   #16
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Why?

...Because typically things like this are not caused by snowmobiles and their riders:













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Old 03-13-2013, 03:02 PM   #17
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ATV's don't kill the environment;People kill the environment.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:12 PM   #18
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With all due respect Old River, I think it's fair to say that you may have chosen the wrong forum to stick up for ATV use in the Adirondacks.
I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree.

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Old 03-13-2013, 03:13 PM   #19
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ATV's don't kill the environment;People kill the environment.
Hey, that rings a bell!
National ATV Association?

Pro ATV?
Anti ATV?
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:25 PM   #20
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ATV's don't kill the environment;People kill the environment.
Old Lakota Proverb:

"It takes people longer to kill the environment without an ATV"
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