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Old 04-28-2014, 07:58 AM   #1
cityboy
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Is it Good Lumbering Practice?

About 7 years ago Finch Pruyn lumbered our lease property. They used a big machine to cut the timber. Because of wet spots they laid down a layer of branches and limbs along the logging roads. Its not much better off the roads either.

Seven years later its still hard to walk without breaking an ankle. Is this considered best practice? Its hard to sightsee when you constantly have to look where you walk. Its very unsightly too.

Are there any benefits to this procedure? Anyone else have this problem?
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:06 AM   #2
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That's pretty common when they use a harvester. The limbs have to go somewhere and by laying them in the road they add some protection to the road. The limbs also break down quicker after being run over by the machine.
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:19 AM   #3
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That's pretty common when they use a harvester. The limbs have to go somewhere and by laying them in the road they add some protection to the road. The limbs also break down quicker after being run over by the machine.
They must not have broken them down enough. The road is littered in spots with interlacing branches and if you're not careful you go down 2 feet. I thought maybe since they sold their holdings shortly after that they were trying to cut costs. And it has been 7 years and its still there.

From what I understand Finch still has lumbering rights for 20 years.

I also wonder if its a fire hazard now.

Last edited by cityboy; 04-28-2014 at 08:22 AM.. Reason: Added Fire hazard
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:35 AM   #4
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It also benefits the forest to be cut some so it allows new trees too grow better
Old wives tale. The forest got along just fine before we starting messing with it.

The only benefit is to us.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:59 AM   #5
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It also benefits the forest to be cut some so it allows new trees too grow better
Old wives tale. The forest got along just fine before we starting messing with it.

The only benefit is to us.
Exactly. I think it's a case of the statement being taken out of context to the point where it's meaning is lost. The forest benefits from cutting in the sense that a managed forest can produce a cultivated crop that is more useful for man's purposes than the crop nature produces. The forest, absent man, is happy as a clam.

Speaking of which, the phrase "happy as a clam" is also a phrase that has lost it's original meaning. Why would a clam be happy? But the original phrase, which has been foreshortened, was "happy as a clam at high tide". High tide protects clams from their predators, hence they are happy. Foreshortening the phrase caused it's original meaning to be obscured.

And that is what clams have to do with lumbering.

I'll clam up now.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:03 AM   #6
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Its no benefit to those that like hiking the logging roads.

The best camp firewood is the super dry branches that litter the road. That's why I wonder about the fire threat.

When I first starting leasing, the property had been logged about 5 years before. They did it the "old fashioned" way with chainsaws. No problem walking the roads back then. Now its no fun at all. And its not much easier walking off road either.
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:46 AM   #7
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Old wives tale. The forest got along just fine before we starting messing with it. The only benefit is to us.
I think most foresters would disagree with that statement. Before we started "messing" with forests fire and other natural events played the role that logging does now. In an overly mature forest there is very little regeneration due to lack of sunlight on the forest floor. This leads to lack of wildlife due to little or no food and shelter.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:02 AM   #8
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I think most foresters would disagree with that statement. Before we started "messing" with forests fire and other natural events played the role that logging does now. In an overly mature forest there is very little regeneration due to lack of sunlight on the forest floor. This leads to lack of wildlife due to little or no food and shelter.
Not a personal attack, but directed at the "loggers are good for everything" montra.

There is no such thing, except in the dreams and aspirations of a logger, of an over-mature forest. Any more then there is an over-mature mountain to a strip miner. I can spot in a moment a "managed" forest- they are damaged, rent-up deserts that wildlife hurries through to get to the "un-improved" areas where they can eat or hide. Like pretending a cornfield is an improvement done to benefit nature.

I don't argue for a moment they don't have the right to do with as they wish to property they own, but they are only interested in their crop. Loggers clear away the very things wildlife needs to survive, so the certain types of trees they want will grow straighter, faster & better. I can count on zero fingers the part forest fires have had here after how many years of the forest being "un'touched". So don't blow smoke up my a_ _ saying logging is to improve wildlife or beauty, and I won't tell you the 1000 Island bridge is so the wildlife can migrate across the river easier.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:06 AM   #9
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Interesting thread.
The title, "Is this good lumbering practice" is, to me, a suggestion that the poster is either suspecting or suggesting the contrary.

One answer, "It is common" indicates whether good or bad, it is commonly done.

Then the thread quickly turns into a discussion of the pros and cons of logging in general. A mild snipe (I saw it as a snipe, maybe it wasn't meant to be one) points out that if you live in a house then you need the logging industry (and by extension you have no business criticizing logging).

It's also interesting that the OP uses logging roads to hike on, thereby deriving a recreational benefit from the activity of logging.

Then we quickly move on to a short discussion on whether logging benefits the forest, wildlife and man. The answers to all of those questions are: it depends on what you want to achieve.

A tended forest (sylviculture, tree farming) obviously can be scientifically planted to maximize the capture of incident solar energy into chemical bonds between sugar molecules (ie. wood).

A wild forest has greater biodiversity but appears chaotic and a lot of solar energy goes uncaptured. It is inefficient, not unlike an undammed waterway whose potential energy seems to flows away uselessly to the sea. A harvested forest provides feeding opportunities for game animals such as deer, whose population increases. Is this good because people like to hunt them or is it bad because deer are the preferred hosts of ticks which are the main vectors of Lyme disease, and the size of the tick population parallels that of the deer population?

So, returning to the thread title (why not, after all?), what is good lumbering practice and how do you judge the goodness or badness of the maintenance of logging roads? By the cost? By allowing people to walk down them and sight-see? By fire hazard?
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:42 AM   #10
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I've since asked around. The current Timber manager of the lease owner indicated that they (Finch) would never have gotten away with it if he had been supervising the job.

My own property has been logged twice. The first time the loggers lopped off the upper half of trees and left it lying where it fell and took the good part. Logging roads were deeply rutted. I think they took advantage of my parents who were old. As a deer hunter they ruined the area for 15 years. I was constantly climbing under, over, and around treetops.

When I contracted out I made sure it didn't happen again. The result was a neat forest with drivable logging roads. It doesn't even look like it was cut.
I haven't asked the wildlife how they felt since they have yet to pay their share of the taxes.
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:12 PM   #11
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I think you missed the part where it's his own property, not some randomly selected forest tract...
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:22 PM   #12
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I think you missed the part where it's his own property, not some randomly selected forest tract...
I realize that and I didnt mean just him I mean everyone. If u dont wanna see what happens to an area that has been logged find a diffrent place to wander around and dont complain about it because its needed.
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:36 PM   #13
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I think you missed the part where it's his own property, not some randomly selected forest tract...
The mess is on my lease property in the Adirondacks. No control over that one. The other is my private residence in Southern tier. I guess it makes a difference since I specifically stated how I wanted done.

As for the lease they're still charging the same price even though the recreational aspect has diminished. Sometimes change is not good.
By the time that stuff rots I may not even be able to hike
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Old 05-01-2014, 03:48 PM   #14
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I realize that and I didnt mean just him I mean everyone. If u dont wanna see what happens to an area that has been logged find a diffrent place to wander around and dont complain about it because its needed.
OK, I understand - I certainly agree with that. There are lots of great places to go - the Adirondacks is BIG! Thanks.
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Old 05-01-2014, 05:17 PM   #15
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Great history of America and her forest;
"American Canopy" by Eric Rutkow
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:56 PM   #16
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If it was a commercial thinning then the tops should not need to be everywhere, but if the canopy has been opened significantly the tops preventing free movement can help regeneration since they keep the deer from eating small trees after they sprout. It is a tradeoff between long term forest management and short term recreation and there is not a right or wrong answer, it just depends what your goal is. Ideally a logger should work with you to promote your personal forest goals on your land but all too often that is not the case.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:21 PM   #17
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Any photos of, or links to good and bad logging practices?
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:55 PM   #18
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I would think that it is a lot better than 2+ft ruts everywhere and u would still need to put the limbs and tops somewhere so it seems like a pretty good alternative to me
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Old 05-13-2014, 03:46 PM   #19
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I agree with albert on this one. Not only is it easier to walk on branches, branches everywhere looks a lot better than huge ruts left by skidders. I also think that logging is important to our wildlife. It is also a lot easier to walk through a logged woods then one that has never been logged.
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Old 05-15-2014, 09:50 AM   #20
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When the cutting is done plays a big role in appearance. My summer property was just cut in January to March before mud season. Very few ruts and the Logger is still coming back to grade in the fall.
As I recall the Newcomb Lease was cut July through October. It was much wetter then hence the layer of branches. Still you would think they could have used a grader to smooth it out. And no it is not easier to walk on branches. Think of trying to navigate a brush pile.
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