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Old 08-10-2012, 09:20 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by adkh20 View Post
ATP is the Danish pension fund that bought 92,000 acres from the Nature Conservancy in 2009. This land is protected by a conservation easement and will be actively harvested to provide pulp wood to the Finch mill.

http://www.nature.org/ourinitiatives...imberlands.xml
Thank you for the info.
Does anyone know if the large tract of land located off Cedar river rd in the area between Cedar river and rt30 Indian lake is open to the public?
These lands were formally leased from FP by the Deer valley Club.

I have found the answer to my question.These lands sold to ATP/RMK are leased currently.
ATP/RMK along with FP have been renewing a number of leases on yearly basis,mostly to hunting clubs.
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Old 08-10-2012, 09:22 AM   #82
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Does the Boreas Ponds tract extent eastward to the summits of Wolf Pond Peak and Boreas Mountain? I was unable to ascertain that from the map.

Is there a topographic map showing the tracts?
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Old 08-10-2012, 09:24 AM   #83
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It seems to me that NYS paid quite a premium for this property. By my calculations some 50 to 55 percent over market. I base this upon the following. 80% or 49,000 acres @ $350 per acre (comparable purchase is ATP buying 92,000 ac for 32.8 mill) plus 20% or 12,000 acres @ $1100 per acre (comparable Follmsby Pond). Market value equals roughly 31 million. This land did not come cheap.
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Old 08-10-2012, 09:30 AM   #84
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"Your glass is half empty. It's not the (potential) wilderness designation limiting your access, it's your attachment to your bike that's limiting where you want to go."

I disagree Wildriver. This purchase was made out of public funds and purports to open access to all people. Limiting it to just those who can walk the farthest or prepared to spend the night camping is not access to all. I'm not saying open it up to motor vechicles but to have miles of road go to waste is absurd. If they open it up to horses (a big if) then bikes are acceptable too.
One could make the same argument about the highway system. There are roads that are off limits to bikes and hikers, yet they are paid for with public funds. I am allowed to access them, just not on a bike or on foot. Our system is full of projects paid for with my taxes that I don't necessarily agree with or cannot benefit from as an individual. Want to put up a new mega sports stadium in the city with tax dollars? Zero benefit to lots of folks like me who will never go there and think it is a complete waste, yet I probably have effectively zero input into that decision. However, I suck it up, pay my taxes and enjoy those items that do benefit me and are perhaps not of benefit to someone else in another segment of society.
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Old 08-10-2012, 09:35 AM   #85
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It seems to me that NYS paid quite a premium for this property. By my calculations some 50 to 55 percent over market. I base this upon the following. 80% or 49,000 acres @ $350 per acre (comparable purchase is ATP buying 92,000 ac for 32.8 mill) plus 20% or 12,000 acres @ $1100 per acre (comparable Follmsby Pond). Market value equals roughly 31 million. This land did not come cheap.
Why the 80:20 ratio?
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:19 AM   #86
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Does the Boreas Ponds tract extent eastward to the summits of Wolf Pond Peak and Boreas Mountain? I was unable to ascertain that from the map.

Is there a topographic map showing the tracts?
The maps issued in 2008 (during the original announcement) were drawn at a slightly larger scale so it was easier to pin down the boundaries to actual locations; that was how I drew my map. I have noticed that some slight changes have been made since then, though.

Actually, since the easements were acquired in 2010, they already show on the forthcoming new edition of National Geographic High Peaks map. This can be previewed at www.natgeomaps.com. With some detective work, you can predict some of the new state land boundaries by where the easement boundaries end. Some of those "gaps" are nicely filled by the vague yellow shapes on the DEC maps.

In regards to Boreas Mountain, the earlier TNC maps from 2008 were a bit clearer. The west slopes will be purchased, but not the east slopes.
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:19 AM   #87
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Does the Boreas Ponds tract extent eastward to the summits of Wolf Pond Peak and Boreas Mountain? I was unable to ascertain that from the map.

Is there a topographic map showing the tracts?
Neil,

I seem to remeber reading that the border would be on the Boreas -Wolf ridge, allowing access to the peak of Boreas from a western approach...
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:37 AM   #88
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One could make the same argument about the highway system. There are roads that are off limits to bikes and hikers, yet they are paid for with public funds. I am allowed to access them, just not on a bike or on foot. Our system is full of projects paid for with my taxes that I don't necessarily agree with or cannot benefit from as an individual. Want to put up a new mega sports stadium in the city with tax dollars? Zero benefit to lots of folks like me who will never go there and think it is a complete waste, yet I probably have effectively zero input into that decision. However, I suck it up, pay my taxes and enjoy those items that do benefit me and are perhaps not of benefit to someone else in another segment of society.
Well said Wldrns. I completely agree.

I for one hope that we get some more non-motorized water out of this. There is not nearly enough in the ADK's.

Can anyone tell me specifically which Nat'l Geo map shows the lands from this purchase? I have 3- 743, 744, 745- and none of them seem to cover it.
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:39 AM   #89
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Why the 80:20 ratio?

DuctTape, one of the articles I read by either Local Government Review Board’s or ADK Association of Towns stated that 80% of the land was remote land suitable only to harvesting timber.

It is interesting that when I spoke with a Finch Pruyn forrester he told me that the towns assessment of $300 per acre was crazy and swore it was worth less than $200. I imagine he laughed when they sold it to the Nature Conservancy for $683 per acre. There is, I'm told, one born every minute.
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:43 AM   #90
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It is interesting that when I spoke with a Finch Pruyn forrester he told me that the towns assessment of $300 per acre was crazy and swore it was worth less than $200. I imagine he laughed when they sold it to the Nature Conservancy for $683 per acre. There is, I'm told, one born every minute.
Have you ever met a landowner who thought the town's assessment was too low?
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:44 AM   #91
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Back to the topic:

It seems to me that NYS paid quite a premium for this property. By my calculations some 50 to 55 percent over market. I base this upon the following. 80% or 49,000 acres @ $350 per acre (comparable purchase is ATP buying 92,000 ac for 32.8 mill) plus 20% or 12,000 acres @ $1100 per acre (comparable Follmsby Pond). Market value equals roughly 31 million. This land did not come cheap.
Remember the Dutch have a conservation easement. It's a little different to take complete ownership than say buying property with significant restrictions.

At under $750 an acre it's really difficult to make the case that it's a premium purchase. My neighbor sold 75 acres of recently tree'd land at 55,000 and I had a puddle of drool under my chin and the property lasted 1 week on market (surrounded on 3 sides by state land, in other words the size of the property has very little value considering the amount of state land around it). The state should get a discount for the size and I would say it was a good deal without considering the water invovled.
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:02 PM   #92
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"Have you ever met a landowner who thought the town's assessment was too low?"

Yes, there are plenty people like me. We just won't tell the assessor. The grievence process only allows you to dispute your own property. Things might be quite different if you were able to dispute your neighbors.

A measure of uniformity for real property is the COD. Typical CODs for ADK towns are roughly 20%. This means that two similar property worth 100,000 full market might be assessed at 80,000 or 120,000. Believe me assessors make mistakes lowballing too.
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:29 PM   #93
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In response to the comment about this land being purchased at greater than market value, may I point out that a value of around $1000/acre is usually a REASONABLE starting point for large scale purchases. This is absolutely prime property; if it were being sold by private owners on a smaller scale, it could very easily go for 5-10 times as much, even being "undeveloped" (which is what we want here).

If anyone questions the numbers, they are welcome to look at the various ADK real estate web sites. The price ranges will show that my numbers are at least reasonable or even understatements of the reality.
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:32 PM   #94
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Why the 80:20 ratio?

DuctTape, one of the articles I read by either Local Government Review Board’s or ADK Association of Towns stated that 80% of the land was remote land suitable only to harvesting timber.

It is interesting that when I spoke with a Finch Pruyn forrester he told me that the towns assessment of $300 per acre was crazy and swore it was worth less than $200. I imagine he laughed when they sold it to the Nature Conservancy for $683 per acre. There is, I'm told, one born every minute.
So the groups opposing the sale came up with that ratio. The fact they, and the forester are basing assessment on the timber shows their myopic view of lands' value. Those who make that statement lose all credibility in my mind. First, there is more value than simply the resource to be harvested/mined etc... To claim that land is only suitable for harvesting timber is laughable. It would be like saying a remote lake suitable only for fishing. Both ignore the many other activities which provide indirect economic benefit. Second there is the inherent value of the land itself. Lastly there is the non-economic value of pristine woods and water to be enjoyed by those who visit. That my friend is priceless.
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:17 PM   #95
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DuctTape, I think the 80% remote timber to be a very reasonable estimate. As to value the Office of Real Property is responsible for valueing all State owned forest property. According to their timber schedules "bare land" is worth about $350 per acre. Bare land is exclusive of trees.
As far as I know timber companies were never offered the chance to bid. I'm sure it would not have mattered since they could not match the Nature Conservancy"s price anyway.
Even before this purchase the State owns 45% of the Park. How much more does it need. A conservation easement was appropriate and if necessary buy the land surrounding the lakes but outright purchase was unnecessary. This property that is being described as pristine, a jewel was privately owned for 100 plus years. It wasn't being run into the ground but was used according to its highest and best use forrest land.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:37 PM   #96
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I get chills looking at these stats:

180 miles of rivers and streams
175 lakes and ponds
465 miles of shoreline along rivers streams and lakes
6 mountains 2k+


I wonder what the Nature Conservancy will due with the funds. I realize there is debt involved on their end. The more I read about the more intrigued I become.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:22 PM   #97
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I get chills looking at these stats:

180 miles of rivers and streams
175 lakes and ponds
465 miles of shoreline along rivers streams and lakes
6 mountains 2k+
The hardest part may be the wait.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:24 PM   #98
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The hardest part may be the wait.
How long until the unwashed public gets access?
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:28 PM   #99
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How long until the unwashed public gets access?
The news reports were conflicting on that aspect. I know full access to everything wasn't expected until 2018, when the last of the leases expire.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:36 PM   #100
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DuctTape, I think the 80% remote timber to be a very reasonable estimate. As to value the Office of Real Property is responsible for valueing all State owned forest property. According to their timber schedules "bare land" is worth about $350 per acre. Bare land is exclusive of trees.
As far as I know timber companies were never offered the chance to bid. I'm sure it would not have mattered since they could not match the Nature Conservancy"s price anyway.
Even before this purchase the State owns 45% of the Park. How much more does it need. A conservation easement was appropriate and if necessary buy the land surrounding the lakes but outright purchase was unnecessary. This property that is being described as pristine, a jewel was privately owned for 100 plus years. It wasn't being run into the ground but was used according to its highest and best use forrest land.
Thank you for proving my point. The timber value is only $350, as I said land has more value than just what lumber companies desire. The simple fact they cannot profit from it in excess of that timber value does not make it any less valuable to others.

Only 45% of the preserve? I thought it was more. I have no hard percent in mind. Apparently you do. My opinion, not that it carries any weight... Except for developed land, I would say the rest. Outside the lines, we can allow logging as allowed by the Constitution.
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