Adirondack Forum  
Rules Membership Donations and Online Store Adkhighpeaks Foundation ADKhighpeaks Forums ADKhighpeaks Wiki Disclaimer

Go Back   Adirondack Forum > The Adirondack Forum > Hunting and Fishing in the Adirondacks
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-03-2015, 10:48 AM   #81
tiogaguy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 49
So the overfishing, competing with smallmouth bass, deforestation, soil compaction, herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, manure runoff, road salt, and antibiotic runoff along the West Branch of Owego creek is better Brook Trout habitat than the North Branch of the Saranac? That goes for the Geny...too. Doesn't that go against what VTflyfish said? Do explain how that works to me, better yet, tell me where I can find the biological documentation. There is a significant difference between the western NY streams near the Allegheny and Laurel Highlands than in Broome, Tioga, Steuben, and Chemung counties. I will read the Ausable survey if I can find it, lets hope its not anecdotal science to prove stocking is "the only" way to have a fishery. After all, there wouldn't be anywhere for the guides take their clients to catch 3 lb brood stockies. What would happen to the fly shops if the only thing to fish for were 6-10 inch brook trout.
tiogaguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 11:04 AM   #82
tiogaguy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 49
Here is a pretty recent study on brook trout.

Please read the section on exotic species, pgs 29-30.

http://dnr2.maryland.gov/fisheries/D...ement_plan.pdf
tiogaguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 11:04 AM   #83
Glen
Check please
 
Glen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huntington Bay, NY
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiogaguy View Post
So the overfishing, competing with smallmouth bass, deforestation, soil compaction, herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, manure runoff, road salt, and antibiotic runoff along the West Branch of Owego creek is better Brook Trout habitat than the North Branch of the Saranac? That goes for the Geny...too. Doesn't that go against what VTflyfish said? Do explain how that works to me, better yet, tell me where I can find the biological documentation. There is a significant difference between the western NY streams near the Allegheny and Laurel Highlands than in Broome, Tioga, Steuben, and Chemung counties. I will read the Ausable survey if I can find it, lets hope its not anecdotal science to prove stocking is "the only" way to have a fishery. After all, there wouldn't be anywhere for the guides take their clients to catch 3 lb brood stockies. What would happen to the fly shops if the only thing to fish for were 6-10 inch brook trout.
You constantly contradict yourself. You pick one example and make that the baseline. You are arguing here, particularly on this thread, with people who prefer brook trout fishing. Most of us however, have taken the time to read and be involved for many years in trying to improve our fisheries. The damage, from all the reasons you cited above, and those Gman and others stated, have occurred in all major drainages in the State, including the Adirondacks. At some point one has to be practical as to what is and what is not attainable. If you want to tilt at windmills you are wasting your time. The key is to work on what we still have left and try to impart some knowledge to prevent further degradation. Debating the practice of stocking browns and rainbows is an interesting thought experiment but in the end, in most larger waters, all of which have been compromised, it is the way it is going to stay for both economic and practical reasons. Read my signature line.
__________________
“Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
― Cormac McCarthy
Glen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 12:12 PM   #84
tiogaguy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 49
What contradictions? There has been nothing but comment after comment how the smallmouth bass has been the scourge of the Brook trout in lakes. I'm just pointing out the scourge of the Brookies in streams is the stocking of non-native Browns and Rainbows. Creating both undue fishing pressure and competition. I pointed out Brookies are a heck of a lot more resilient to habitat destruction if they don't have to compete with exotic species. What is contradictory about that? As you just pointed out, the ECONOMIC need for people to catch fish outweighs the time it would take for the native fish to restore themselves. Like I said, is it about the Fish or the Fishing?
tiogaguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 12:17 PM   #85
vtflyfish
Brookie Addict
 
vtflyfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: West coast of New England
Posts: 2,519
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiogaguy View Post
Here is a pretty recent study on brook trout.

Please read the section on exotic species, pgs 29-30.

http://dnr2.maryland.gov/fisheries/D...ement_plan.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen View Post
You constantly contradict yourself. You pick one example and make that the baseline. You are arguing here, particularly on this thread, with people who prefer brook trout fishing. Most of us however, have taken the time to read and be involved for many years in trying to improve our fisheries. The damage, from all the reasons you cited above, and those Gman and others stated, have occurred in all major drainages in the State, including the Adirondacks. At some point one has to be practical as to what is and what is not attainable. If you want to tilt at windmills you are wasting your time. The key is to work on what we still have left and try to impart some knowledge to prevent further degradation. Debating the practice of stocking browns and rainbows is an interesting thought experiment but in the end, in most larger waters, all of which have been compromised, it is the way it is going to stay for both economic and practical reasons. Read my signature line.

What Glen said!!!

You presented a fairly enlightened management plan. But, the damage is done in NY. The best stream fishing that existed for very large brook trout was originally on Long Island. Try reclaiming that. The famous rivers of the Catskills all have much better water chemistry than the Adirondacks. Their days of superlative brookie fishing ended in the 1830's, with the massive pollution from the tanneries, logging and sedimentation due to 19th century agriculture. It will take centuries to restore that habitat, even if we all move away and leave it alone.

There is nothing I would rather see than restored brookie habitat. I think our best option is keeping what we have (the ponds) and working for more enlightened policies to keep and possibly enhance them
__________________
Oscar Wilde:Work is the curse of the drinking class
vtflyfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 12:33 PM   #86
Gman
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Standing in a stream waving a stick
Posts: 1,009
Southern tier rivers can take a lot more abuse than ADK rivers. The granite bedrock of the ADK's has low permeability with an abundance of standing water and so ADK rivers are heavily influenced by surface runoff and standing (lake) water. The surrounding surface environment must be pristine. As it is in the headwaters of the North Saranac. A small stream in a headwater, pristine setting. But what about where the NB gets closer to the forks in Clayburgh or the Ausable, South Saranac and many others?

The sedimentary rocks of the southern tier have higher permeability with lower gradient. More of a rivers flow comes from groundwater. Groundwater sources are more stable in quality, volume and temperature. You can drink groundwater. The above ground environment need not be so demanding.

Many sections of ADK rivers are devoid of trout in late winter (before spring stocking) because of anchor ice, many early stocked trout die because of acid shock from runoff. They wait until the end of May before stocking many rivers for this reason. These are 2 problems associated with surface runoff that don't occur in the southern tier.

Read this to learn about Frazil (crystal) and Anchor Ice. The Adirondacks are probably the worst place in North America for the development of Anchor Ice. All it takes is cold weather, low runoff and sand/siltation.

http://cripe.civil.ualberta.ca/Downl...et_al_1993.pdf

Not easy being a trout in an ADK river.
__________________
Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.
Gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 12:38 PM   #87
Glen
Check please
 
Glen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huntington Bay, NY
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiogaguy View Post
What contradictions? There has been nothing but comment after comment how the smallmouth bass has been the scourge of the Brook trout in lakes. I'm just pointing out the scourge of the Brookies in streams is the stocking of non-native Browns and Rainbows. Creating both undue fishing pressure and competition. I pointed out Brookies are a heck of a lot more resilient to habitat destruction if they don't have to compete with exotic species. What is contradictory about that? As you just pointed out, the ECONOMIC need for people to catch fish outweighs the time it would take for the native fish to restore themselves. Like I said, is it about the Fish or the Fishing?
Not sure why I bother anymore, but here goes: If you stopped stocking the Beaverkill with Browns for example, tell me how many brook trout you will find surviving with summer water temps into the 70's. Deforestation, channelization, rip/rap, road salt, etc all make brookie survival (to any meaningful degree) minimal. Yes, there will be some in the tribs. The ones small enough to survive in a marginal stream. Same thing with the Saranac, Willowemoc, Ausable, etc. So, where most of us are against exotic species, your utopian view where eliminating stocking non-natives ushers in a new renaissance of brook trout is unrealistic. So it's both about the fish and the fishing. That's the real world. Choices get made. Deal with it.
__________________
“Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
― Cormac McCarthy
Glen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 12:41 PM   #88
Glen
Check please
 
Glen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huntington Bay, NY
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiogaguy View Post
What contradictions? There has been nothing but comment after comment how the smallmouth bass has been the scourge of the Brook trout in lakes. I'm just pointing out the scourge of the Brookies in streams is the stocking of non-native Browns and Rainbows. Creating both undue fishing pressure and competition. I pointed out Brookies are a heck of a lot more resilient to habitat destruction if they don't have to compete with exotic species. What is contradictory about that? As you just pointed out, the ECONOMIC need for people to catch fish outweighs the time it would take for the native fish to restore themselves. Like I said, is it about the Fish or the Fishing?

And yet in previous posts you poo poo those who lament invasives saying everything "finds it's niche". Total BS.
__________________
“Once there were brook trout in the streams in the mountains. They smelled of moss in your hand. On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes. Of a thing which could not be put back. Not be made right again. In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery.”
― Cormac McCarthy
Glen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 12:50 PM   #89
Gman
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Standing in a stream waving a stick
Posts: 1,009
I also might add the stocking of brown and rainbow trout have siphoned a lot of pressure from native brook trout fisheries. That in itself would be reason enough.
__________________
Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.
Gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 01:22 PM   #90
tiogaguy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 49
The famous rivers of the Catskills all have much better water chemistry than the Adirondacks. Their days of superlative brookie fishing ended in the 1830's, with the massive pollution from the tanneries, logging and sedimentation due to 19th century agriculture.

If you stopped stocking the Beaverkill with Browns for example, tell me how many brook trout you will find surviving with summer water temps into the 70's. Deforestation, channelization, rip/rap, road salt, etc all make brookie survival (to any meaningful degree) minimal.

So which is it the Catskill are better than the ADKs or not?

I routinely fish 70+ water in the southern tier that have had all the above done to them or worse. Did I mention the 13.5" brookie? The Owego, Geneganslet, Otselic are so silt laden in spots its like quick sand and stinks like cow S**t because it is! I think a very good portion of the Saranac could become an excellent big brook trout fishery if stocking of exotics were stopped.

Anyway, nothing "utopian" about the my views. The utopians are the people who expect a big brown to hit their fly every cast.
tiogaguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 01:39 PM   #91
Brookie hunter
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: follow my tracks.
Posts: 211
I would like to see an all brook trout fishery also but its not going to happen. IMO leave the browns and rainbows where they are and then focus all of our resources on preserving the brook trout waters we have. I think theirs been both browns and rainbows put in suitible brook trout habitat but its already happened so we cant reverse that now. Again I say maintain the other fisheries as thay are and do alot of work for the brook trout with what habitat we have left.
Brookie hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 01:45 PM   #92
Creekwader
Snag Locator
 
Creekwader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In the Place of the Nettles
Posts: 934
One should also keep in mind that Brown trout are a few IQ points higher than your average native brook trout. So along with the aforementioned attributes including thermal tolerance and better evasive behavior, brown trout are able to provide a trout fishery in environmentally compromised and pressurized fisheries. Brook trout would not only fail due to habitat, they would get caught out rapidly and end up costing more money for the state to stock and provide a put and take fishery that would make nobody happy. Thus the need for brook trout monocultures in ponds for the 'last refuge' of the brook trout which was the original point of this thread before the misguided grenades started getting thrown.
Creekwader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 01:45 PM   #93
Glen
Check please
 
Glen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huntington Bay, NY
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiogaguy View Post
The famous rivers of the Catskills all have much better water chemistry than the Adirondacks. Their days of superlative brookie fishing ended in the 1830's, with the massive pollution from the tanneries, logging and sedimentation due to 19th century agriculture.

If you stopped stocking the Beaverkill with Browns for example, tell me how many brook trout you will find surviving with summer water temps into the 70's. Deforestation, channelization, rip/rap, road salt, etc all make brookie survival (to any meaningful degree) minimal.

So which is it the Catskill are better than the ADKs or not?

I routinely fish 70+ water in the southern tier that have had all the above done to them or worse. Did I mention the 13.5" brookie? The Owego, Geneganslet, Otselic are so silt laden in spots its like quick sand and stinks like cow S**t because it is! I think a very good portion of the Saranac could become an excellent big brook trout fishery if stocking of exotics were stopped.

Anyway, nothing "utopian" about the my views. The utopians are the people who expect a big brown to hit their fly every cast.

Wow, you caught a 13.5" brookie? That must mean everything is all good. I apologize for suggesting the problems were actually complex and a long time in the making. I feel much better now. Other posters made some excellent points about substantive differences between Adirondack and Catskill watersheds and now you want to make it about which is better? Maybe you should start your own thread on that.
Glen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 01:57 PM   #94
Creekwader
Snag Locator
 
Creekwader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In the Place of the Nettles
Posts: 934
I think he's suggesting that all recreational fishing should be stopped. Maybe he's a closet PETA member.
Creekwader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 02:06 PM   #95
tiogaguy
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 49
Yeah, gotcha Glen, my little native 13 incher doesn't compare to those monster stocky browns you hammer, You da man!!! Man those biguns' would eat my little baby brookies. In fact, they probably did.

Having caught numerous 10-14 lb rainbows and 3 lb Arctic Grayling on flies when I lived on the Naknek River in Alaska, that Brook trout is a trophy in my book. Glad its about the fishing to you Glen, just like the guys who stocked the bass.
tiogaguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 02:12 PM   #96
Gman
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Standing in a stream waving a stick
Posts: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiogaguy View Post
The famous rivers of the Catskills all have much better water chemistry than the Adirondacks. Their days of superlative brookie fishing ended in the 1830's, with the massive pollution from the tanneries, logging and sedimentation due to 19th century agriculture.

If you stopped stocking the Beaverkill with Browns for example, tell me how many brook trout you will find surviving with summer water temps into the 70's. Deforestation, channelization, rip/rap, road salt, etc all make brookie survival (to any meaningful degree) minimal.

So which is it the Catskill are better than the ADKs or not?

I routinely fish 70+ water in the southern tier that have had all the above done to them or worse. Did I mention the 13.5" brookie? The Owego, Geneganslet, Otselic are so silt laden in spots its like quick sand and stinks like cow S**t because it is! I think a very good portion of the Saranac could become an excellent big brook trout fishery if stocking of exotics were stopped.

Anyway, nothing "utopian" about the my views. The utopians are the people who expect a big brown to hit their fly every cast.
You should smack yourself along side the head for trout fishing in 70+ water.

Yes the stream trout fishing in the Catskills is better than the Adirondacks.

Actually with the exception of the Ausable and Saranac that are mostly in the Park, the best stream fishing in the Adirondacks IS OUTSIDE THE ADIRONDACKS! The Chateauguay, Trout, Black, Salmon, West Canada etc. are better outside the Park.
__________________
Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.
Gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 02:13 PM   #97
Glen
Check please
 
Glen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huntington Bay, NY
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiogaguy View Post
Yeah, gotcha Glen, my little native 13 incher doesn't compare to those monster stocky browns you hammer, You da man!!! Man those biguns' would eat my little baby brookies. In fact, they probably did.

Having caught numerous 10-14 lb rainbows and 3 lb Arctic Grayling on flies when I lived on the Naknek River in Alaska, that Brook trout is a trophy in my book. Glad its about the fishing to you Glen, just like the guys who stocked the bass.

I don't fish for and haven't caught a Brown in ten years. Just Brookies thank you. Try reading older posts from all of us and you might actually learn something. I'd give you more rope but you would definitely hang yourself.
Glen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 02:17 PM   #98
Glen
Check please
 
Glen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huntington Bay, NY
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Creekwader View Post
I think he's suggesting that all recreational fishing should be stopped. Maybe he's a closet PETA member.

Frankly, I don't know what he is. He has us all taking sides we never took.

By the way, welcome back to the forum. We missed you.
Glen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 02:26 PM   #99
Gman
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Standing in a stream waving a stick
Posts: 1,009
Okay who gets the lash? Neils gonna be poppin in before long. Who is responsible for this thread going sideways?

It was that damn Sero. Where'd he go?.....stirs the pot then slips out the side door.
__________________
Izaak Walton a great writer? He can't even spell COMPLETE.
Gman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 02:33 PM   #100
Glen
Check please
 
Glen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huntington Bay, NY
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gman View Post
Okay who gets the lash? Neils gonna be poppin in before long. Who is responsible for this thread going sideways?

It was that damn Sero. Where'd he go?.....stirs the pot then slips out the side door.

You're right. The funny part is that the OP never checked back in after his initial post. You could really delete everything after page 1 and not really miss much.
Glen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

DISCLAIMER: Use of these forums, and information found herein, is at your own risk. Use of this site by members and non-members alike is only granted by the adkhighpeak.com administration provided the terms and conditions found in the FULL DISCLAIMER have been read. Continued use of this site implies that you have read, understood and agree to the terms and conditions of this site. Any questions can be directed to the Administrator of this site.