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Old 11-08-2010, 12:49 PM   #1
paddlewheel
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Oversized groups

Don't get me wrong here....I don't want to stir anything up about the boy scouts of America. I believe it is a great institution....always was & always will be. I have nothing but respect for those that give their time to the cause of instructing our young male youth in the ways of woods lore and Adirondack travel ....but in this day and age I question the wisdom of bringing a party of 20 or more people into the woods in one group venture...

I recently did a hike up to Treadway Mountain in the eastern Adk's with my daughter & my son...not much more than a mile into our trek we heard a very noisy & large party approaching from behind us as we were adjusting our outer wear....removing items as we warmed up...

This approaching party was the largest I've ever seen together in the woods...I counted at least 25 of them....they were loud, noisy & no matter what our pace, we couldn't seem to put them at a considerable distance. When we reached the summit & the surrounding cliffs they were everywhere....it was really kind of nuts.

My question is...with all the traffic that there is today on semi-popular trails, shouldn't there be some kind of ruling for "the number in one particular party"? I can't imagine this being beneficial for anyone. It left me feeling uneasy and I had this overwhelming desire to just run down the trail and get away from it all..

I'm really thankful for the art of bushwhacking...

I just feel oversized groups like this are impractical in this day & age...Maybe they should be broken down into smaller groups....It would be a better thing for them & anyone that encounters a group like this...

Just wondering how you other folks feel about this.......Thanks
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:58 PM   #2
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Well I agree they are noisy, but it would be complicated to break a troop up into smaller groups. There would be arguements galore on who goes with who. Like picking teams in gym class sort of.

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Old 11-08-2010, 01:08 PM   #3
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Well I agree they are noisy, but it would be complicated to break a troop up into smaller groups. There would be arguments galore on who goes with who. Like picking teams in gym class sort of.
Yeah....but 25 voices all going on in the same space where other people are seeking something good about being in the Adk's just seems wrong...
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:17 PM   #4
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I believe there is a group size limit for day hikes and that it is 15.
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:23 PM   #5
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Some campgrounds have group sites with size limits, so I see your point. They can't help it, they have to yell to be heard over the other kids that are yelling. The scoutmaster should tell them to shut up every now & then. Silence is a virtue or something like that.
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:28 PM   #6
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...and when you're over the limit, I thought the group was supposed to split apart and keep a mile distance of the other...

(could be wrong, I'm just the new guy)
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:42 PM   #7
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I thought there was a limit of 15 for dayhiking as well, but doesn't that number apply to the more restrictive High Peaks area? The DEC UMP doesn't seem to address day hiking numbers, only camping limits (10 in the eastern zone for less then 3 days, no permit required). Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken.

However, I do agree with Paddlewheel that a regulation would be useful, if it doesn't already exist. It may be that some of these groups have permits. We were overnight backpacking in the Pharaoh Wilderness this summer and a huge group of backpackers (maybe upwards of 20?) walked by. Turned out it was some sort of youth camping event sponsored by the rangers.

The one that took the cake for me was a group of Boy Scouts on the summit of Giant Mt. I forget the exact number but it was somewhere in the mid-30's. Coupled with the 15 or so people already there, it was literally impossible to find a place to sit! I spoke with the scoutmaster who said he was chewed out by the ranger before for the group size and sounded put out about it.

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Old 11-08-2010, 01:49 PM   #8
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...and when you're over the limit, I thought the group was supposed to split apart and keep a mile distance of the other...

(could be wrong, I'm just the new guy)
Welcome....new guy....

that's a real good point...My thread here isn't that I am anti boy scout or anything along that line....it's mostly that it's 2010.....there's alot of people trying to enjoy the Adk's...more so than 20 or 30 years ago........when you hike or climb peaks..the ideal situation for me is....yeah ...I realize this isn't a solitary place...I will probably run into a like minded soul or a group of three or four out looking for a positive experience...but the ultimate negative encounter for me with others is a huge noisy party that ya can't shake.....kinda eliminates what you were hoping to find in the first place.....I do believe that it is an inconsiderate act to gather a group that large into an atmosphere where a lot of folks are looking to get away from that exact same damn thing.
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Old 11-08-2010, 02:06 PM   #9
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I thought there was a regulation too but I've never substantiated that.

Nevertheless, regulation or not, there is no reason a group of children should be allowed to be noisy or out of control. It is the adults job to keep them in check. Especially if they are scouts. After all:
A Scout is:

* Trustworthy,
* Loyal,
* Helpful,
* Friendly,
* Courteous,
* Kind,
* Obedient,
* Cheerful,
* Thrifty,
* Brave,
* Clean,
* and Reverent.

So they should be kind and consider other people, obedient to their scoutmaster when he tells them to be quiet, and courteous to others by respecting their right to enjoy the outdoors.

I mean isn't that supposed to be a major part of their learing experience in the scouts?

Hawk
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Old 11-08-2010, 02:10 PM   #10
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And furthermore...

I guess what my point is here with this thread is that when I venture into the Adk's...whether it'd be a canoe trip, a day hike, an extended backpacking trip, a peak climb or an isolated bushwhack......what I'm looking for is a different form of order unlike my usual existence.....I grow weary of overpopulation, crowded places & noisy disruption...I take my chances where I go up north with high hopes of running into as little of that as possible for what ever I am doing....sometimes it's solitary other times I run into other folks....most of the time it's good regardless....but large noisy groups really bum me out......and it becomes a negative experience and I truly could do without that...I feel that kind of atmosphere may be fun for the "party" it puts a damper on everyone else's day.
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Old 11-08-2010, 02:47 PM   #11
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Hey Paddlewheel,

I know exactly what you're talking about. About 12-14 years ago (poor memory...) when I first discovered the Pharaoh Lake Wilderness through Barbara McMartin's book "50 Hikes in the Adirondacks," we hiked the whole loop in a leisurely 4 day weekend, taking plenty of breaks for swimming and exploring, and encountered nearly no other overnight campers, and had no competition for any lean-to. Now, if you hike in to Pharaoh lake on almost any given weekend during the peak times of the summer, you might as well plan on camping well away from the prime spots (Watch Rock point comes to mind...) Pharaoh is one of my favorite areas, but I'm seeking solitude elsewhere these days.

The DEC regs as I looked them up state:

Part 190: Use Of State Lands

§190.13 Wilderness Areas in the Adirondack Park:

c. Group size restrictions.

1. In the Eastern High Peaks Zone or Western High Peaks Zone, no person shall

i. be part of a day use group containing sixteen or more people;

ii. on or after July 1, 2001, camp as part of a group including nine or more people; or

iii. be a member of an affiliated day use or camping group which exceeds the numerical limitations established in items (i) or (ii) above, unless such group has separated into smaller groups which do not exceed such limitations and such smaller groups maintain a separation distance from each other of at least one mile at all times.

The only statement about group size limitations that I could find for the Pharaoh Lake Wilderness is under "Trail Information for the Northern Adirondacks - General Notices - Camping Group Sizes in Wilderness, Primitive and Canoe Areas:

"Except for the eastern High Peaks Wilderness, Pharaoh Lake Wilderness and the William C. Whitney Wilderness, where the group size is 8, camping groups in wilderness, primitive and canoe area lands are limited to 9 people or less."

So it doesn't really look like there's an official regulation on day-hike group size for that region.

HOWEVER, I would fully agree with Hawk that the proper thing to do would be to exercise some parts of the "Scout Motto" (or pledge, or whatever it's called...) and be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and/or reverent to the other hikers out there by splitting that group up. Yeah, some of the kids may gripe about it, but they would also learn some of the principles that they profess to teach. Respect other hikers, respect the land, and be cheerful while you're doing it.
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:24 PM   #12
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There is no excuse for that kind of activity, especially from the Boy Scouts. In addition to what Hawk said about points in the Scout Law, BSA has officially embraced LNT as an organizational partner. At least one (probably more) LNT principles has been violated as well in this case, mainly:
"BE CONSIDERATE OF OTHER VISITORS
Respect other visitors and protect the quality of their experience.
Be courteous. Yield to other users on the trail.
Step to the downhill side of the trail when encountering pack stock.
Take breaks and camp away from trails and other visitors.
Let nature's sounds prevail. Avoid loud voices and noises."


And,
From the DEC regulation on use of state lands:
§190.4 Camping permits...
e. No group of 10 or more individuals may camp on State lands at any time except under permit.

[note that the number is 10 or more, so the max # is really 9 or less]

§190.13 Wilderness Areas in the Adirondack Park...
c. Group size restrictions.
1. In the Eastern High Peaks Zone or Western High Peaks Zone, no person shall
i. be part of a day use group containing sixteen or more people;
ii. on or after July 1, 2001, camp as part of a group including nine or more people; or
iii. be a member of an affiliated day use or camping group which exceeds the numerical limitations established in items (i) or (ii) above, unless such group has separated into smaller groups which do not exceed such limitations and such smaller groups maintain a separation distance from each other of at least one mile at all times.



By now each unit of BSA is supposed to have a LNT trainer in the unit, and everyone, boys and leaders, have in theory been exposed to LNT principles. Unfortunately, in many units that training requirement is still loosely adhered to. The LNT guidelines are in place and should be understood, not to mention the Scout Law. But a scoutmaster may choose to plan an outing and there really is no one to enforce he can't take 20 kids. Until they meet a ranger, that is. I have seen cases where a single large group was warned to split up. On the third time they were told, each leader also received a ticket with a fine for $100.

Some 31 years ago this was such a large problem that the DEC was on the verge of banning scouts (and other youth groups) from the Adirondacks. That is when a group of dedicated outdoorsmen, licensed guides and DEC Rangers who cared about scouting, started the Voyageur Trek Leader program. To this day, approximately 20 leaders per year go through the 8-day training course every June. That is a start, but obviously not enough.
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:36 PM   #13
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Just for clarity....

Boy Scout Motto:
Be Prepared!

Boy Scout Oath or Promise:
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Scout Law:
A Scout is...
Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

Boy Scout Slogan:
Do a Good Turn Daily.

The Outdoor Code:
As an American, I will do my best to -
Be clean in my outdoor manners
Be careful with fire
Be considerate in the outdoors, and
Be conservation minded.
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:46 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
Especially if they are scouts. After all:
A Scout is:

* Trustworthy,
* Loyal,
* Helpful,
* Friendly,
* Courteous,
* Kind,
* Obedient,
* Cheerful,
* Thrifty,
* Brave,
* Clean,
* and Reverent.



I mean isn't that supposed to be a major part of their learing experience in the scouts?

Hawk
Note that it doesn't say "Quiet".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wldrns View Post
Just for clarity....

Boy Scout Motto:
Be Prepared!

Boy Scout Oath or Promise:
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Scout Law:
A Scout is...
Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

Boy Scout Slogan:
Do a Good Turn Daily.

The Outdoor Code:
As an American, I will do my best to -
Be clean in my outdoor manners
Be careful with fire
Be considerate in the outdoors, and
Be conservation minded.
but the bolded line in the Outdoor Code should apply. Anyway - as an Assistant Scoutmaster (and Eagle Scout) myself, there are ways to prevent this. First, clearly the leader wasn't really leading...if the Scouts were loud and unruly, they wasn't any consideration for others. Also keep in mind that Leave No Trace is now a significant part of Scout rank advancement, and the last principle is BE CONSIDERATE OF OTHER VISITORS.

Further, it is not unreasonable, or unrealistic, to further divide the group. All Scout troops are broken down into patrols, and if there were 25 boys, that would make up at least three, if not four, patrols. My guess is they had limited adult leadership, and Scout rules now require two adults be present with any youth group, so to break that into four patrols, a total of eight adults would be required, which isn't always easy.

Either way, I would have stopped the group, talked the leaders, and then asked to speak to the boys directly. Of course, being a Scout leader, it might have been easier for me to do than others who aren't also leaders, but teachable moments are too fleeting, and one should take advantage when one can.
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:59 PM   #15
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Note that it doesn't say "Quiet".



but the bolded line in the Outdoor Code should apply. Anyway - as an Assistant Scoutmaster (and Eagle Scout) myself, there are ways to prevent this. First, clearly the leader wasn't really leading...if the Scouts were loud and unruly, they wasn't any consideration for others. Also keep in mind that Leave No Trace is now a significant part of Scout rank advancement, and the last principle is BE CONSIDERATE OF OTHER VISITORS.

Further, it is not unreasonable, or unrealistic, to further divide the group. All Scout troops are broken down into patrols, and if there were 25 boys, that would make up at least three, if not four, patrols. My guess is they had limited adult leadership, and Scout rules now require two adults be present with any youth group, so to break that into four patrols, a total of eight adults would be required, which isn't always easy.

Either way, I would have stopped the group, talked the leaders, and then asked to speak to the boys directly. Of course, being a Scout leader, it might have been easier for me to do than others who aren't also leaders, but teachable moments are too fleeting, and one should take advantage when one can.
I did speak with one of the leaders at one point....as it became time for us to head back down the mountain we found ourselves in the middle of this huge group..
I asked a man who was with them if he could hold them up for a few minutes & give us a head start down the mountain....he looked aggravated about that idea but he said yes....he gave us a moment or two but we more or less had to "boogie" down the mountain....We took one break but we could hear 'em coming like a wagon train full of Mormons into Salt Lake City so we put some more spring into our step....
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:21 PM   #16
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People are we getting down on the Boy Scouts? Some adults took on a suicide mission and lead young boys down a path that today is seldom taken for surely altruistic reasons and we are degrading their efforts? Would you do it? Not me, and probably not the aforementioned adults ever again after meeting such resistance to an impossible mission. Let those boys play video games for they won't be a bother to us more fortunate adventurers. I wonder how they will vote in future forever wild policies?
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:34 PM   #17
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People are we getting down on the Boy Scouts? Some adults took on a suicide mission and lead young boys down a path that today is seldom taken for surely altruistic reasons and we are degrading their efforts? Would you do it? Not me, and probably not the aforementioned adults ever again after meeting such resistance to an impossible mission. Let those boys play video games for they won't be a bother to us more fortunate adventurers. I wonder how they will vote in future forever wild policies?
I was trying to avoid this kind of discussion....

I am not in any way getting down on the concept of the Boy Scouts.....I just feel that it would be more beneficial and agreeable to the majority of solo or small parties that do not or shouldn't have to deal with large amounts of unorganized commotion while seeking some kind of fullfillment while spending time in the Adk's.Everyone is entitled to their peace & enjoyment.....no one deserves to have that taken away from them.......

Smaller groups.....makes sense to me.....

There was at least 4 adults supervising this whole deal....my initial opinion was none of them had any control or exercised any valuable authority

It was pretty much just some guys "sheepherding" a gang of kids up a mountain.....
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:47 PM   #18
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People are we getting down on the Boy Scouts? Some adults took on a suicide mission and lead young boys down a path that today is seldom taken for surely altruistic reasons and we are degrading their efforts? Would you do it? Not me, and probably not the aforementioned adults ever again after meeting such resistance to an impossible mission. Let those boys play video games for they won't be a bother to us more fortunate adventurers. I wonder how they will vote in future forever wild policies?
Nope, no one was "getting down on the scouts", merely relating the facts.

As I see it the folks are "Getting down on the adults" who's responsibility it is to lead.

And although ( would prefer to see them in the outdoors, learning about and being taught to respect then environment, if that aren't going to do that then park them in front of a video game or something else so that those of us who de respect the environment and other people can do so without our experience being ruined.

I don't care if it's a group of boy scouts, heroes, or nuns. Nothing gives any the right to act in such a way as to disturb others or damage th environment.

It's up to the adults to teach and if necessary to discipline, and that discipline can simply be to not take any who don't follow the rules on other trips.

hawk
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:47 PM   #19
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People are we getting down on the Boy Scouts?
I think that the Boy Scouts is a wonderful organization that gives young men opportunities they might not ever have otherwise. And those opportunities go beyond just trips into the wild areas of the world.

That being said, I do think that the Boy Scouts have become a quite rigid organization that is somewhat inflexible and not well suited to changing and adapting to new situations. Let's face it... it can, and has been, a controversial organization at times. I'll quickly reference the hullabaloo about gay scout masters we all saw 10 years ago without arguing against or for the scouts, since I don't think the specifics of that issue are important here.

I read somewhere that when scouting was first getting started, there was an intense debate among the higher inner echelon of the BSA over whether scouts would follow the native american model of outdoor living, or the white man pioneer model of outdoor living. All I will say about this is that the choice that was made, to follow those examples set by white pioneers, explains a lot about the BSA and how they operate today, again without arguing for or against the organization.

It's also unfair to target the BSA solely as the single violator of this regulation. College outing clubs and summer camps are also well known repeat offenders that organize trips violating these regulations. There were several conflicts this past September when a local college organized a "peaks weekend," with the objective of having outing club members scale each of the high peaks during that weekend. In conversations with hikers, I heard of several situations where they returned to their campsite to find their tent surrounded by other tents set up by the outing club, and a group well in excess of the overnight size limit milling about.

As for group size limits, the day use limit of 15 applies only to the high peaks area. There is a state-wide regulation against "organized" groups of 20 or more on state land. The key word here, obviously, is "organized." The regulation is clearly written to limit the use of state lands for things like organized contests, parties, festivals, etc, and so it's not immediately clear whether or not the regulation is meant to apply to the size of regular hiking groups as well.

The overnight group limit size is 9, however, new regulations are being drafted that will decrease this to 8 in wilderness areas (it will still be 9 in wild forest areas). You can get a permit for overnight groups of up to 15 people on state land. The DEC, however, has stopped giving these permits out for trips into wilderness areas, and so this option is now only available if you are planning to visit a wild forest area.

What needs to happen here is education about the size limits and the importance for following them. I think most often, group leaders are simply unaware that the regulation even exists. However, I spoke with one BSA scout master once who was adamantly against the group size limitation, and vowed to continue violating it even though he'd been ticketed for it in the past and his group had been escorted off of state land for being too large. His argument: "How can I tell half of my scout group that they aren't allowed to come with us?"

It's certainly a valid argument, however, it's also not embracing the ability of the situation to be used as a tool to teach the kids about proper respect of wild areas. I got the sense that this scout master was only willing to, or only able to lead backcountry trips for his troop once a year, which is unfortunate. The BSA does, however, have well-trained guides in it's employment that can help to lead trips.

I wish the DEC had more outreach to groups like the BSA, outing clubs, summer camps, etc. to properly educate them and inform them about certain important regulations to follow. Even something as simple as a half hour long power point presentation by forest rangers with a Q & A session afterwards that would be freely available to all organized groups that use wilderness could do wonders, I think, for getting all people to be aware of the need for respect in wilderness.
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:53 PM   #20
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From the DEC regulation on use of state lands:
§190.4 Camping permits...
e. No group of 10 or more individuals may camp on State lands at any time except under permit.
I was going to say, I thought that for ten or more people camping. you needed a permit. At least I did when we did that a few years ago.

Was no big deal, I just called up the ranger and he mailed them to me.
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