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Old 11-08-2010, 10:01 PM   #41
redhawk
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When i see people behaving inappropriately I speak out. I usually try the carrot approach, explaining to them why the behavior is inappropriate.

However there are times when I just let loose because it's obvious that it's somethng they should know, like throwing trash on the trail.

Problem is, most people don't want to be told what they should or shouldn't do, by anyone, regardless of how politely you try to tell them.

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Old 11-09-2010, 07:20 AM   #42
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Oversized Groups

I'm surprised at everyone's reaction to these oversized groups!!

Oversized people like to get outdoors sometimes too! Though, likely not that often.

I once saw a 400 pounder making a valiant effort to climb Mt. Adams...poor guy had worked up a lather on the flat run in. I can honestly say that I was impressed that this oversized person would even attempt to climb a mountain.

I've also seen groups of oversized paddlers, kinda unsettling, seeing those poor canoes with a 1/4 inch of freeboard. But again, hey...kudos to those oversized people just for getting out there!! I did witness an extraction of an oversized kayaker from a kayak... a 300 pounder, might have been a female...the extraction involved lots of Crisco and rope...I can still see it as if it were yesterday. Not a pleasant memory.

I have also seen oversized people while dinghy sailing, in this case their excessive mass can work to their advantage!!

So, let's take it easy on the groups of oversized hikers, paddlers, skiers, etc.


Oh, and please pass the donuts...
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:55 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by redhawk View Post

Problem is, most people don't want to be told what they should or shouldn't do, by anyone, regardless of how politely you try to tell them.

Hawk
Indeed that's true...

An interesting note - when I took my recent LNT trainer course, they discussed a technique known as "Authority of the Resource". Mr. Goodwin's example comes pretty close, but basically rather than cite rules, regulations, and 'ought-to-do's', you ask questions about why that group or person comes to the trails. Once they respond, there's a good chance one of the problem areas may be discussed ("We like to get away from it all", "We like the peace and quiet", etc. may be among their answers). You can then describe your own feelings, talk about how important those things are to you as well, and then bring in the idea that perhaps they may not realize it, but they are acting counter to their own wishes. In that sense, you're appealing not to a rule, per se, but to the resource (the woods, etc) itself, and by asking them to defend and protect that for others to enjoy as well, it's less of a threatening message. Follow this link for a better description than I can give.

And yes, there are some people who will always be belligerent and a problem - don't let their bad karma ruin yours.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:56 AM   #44
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love to help you out actually........but we're on opposite sides of the state......how could we work that out?.....I'm open to some suggestions...
How about next spring/summer I bring the boys up there and you help me lead a canoe camp weekend for them?
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:58 AM   #45
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How about next spring/summer I bring the boys up there and you help me lead a canoe camp weekend for them?
Sounds like a plan, Scott...keep me notified about it.............Thanks
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:08 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by stripperguy View Post
I'm surprised at everyone's reaction to these oversized groups!!

Oversized people like to get outdoors sometimes too! Though, likely not that often.

I once saw a 400 pounder making a valiant effort to climb Mt. Adams...poor guy had worked up a lather on the flat run in. I can honestly say that I was impressed that this oversized person would even attempt to climb a mountain.

I've also seen groups of oversized paddlers, kinda unsettling, seeing those poor canoes with a 1/4 inch of freeboard. But again, hey...kudos to those oversized people just for getting out there!! I did witness an extraction of an oversized kayaker from a kayak... a 300 pounder, might have been a female...the extraction involved lots of Crisco and rope...I can still see it as if it were yesterday. Not a pleasant memory.

I have also seen oversized people while dinghy sailing, in this case their excessive mass can work to their advantage!!

So, let's take it easy on the groups of oversized hikers, paddlers, skiers, etc.


Oh, and please pass the donuts...
Thanks for your kind words, Mike..us "oversizers" appreciate you going to bat for us like that...
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Old 11-09-2010, 10:07 AM   #47
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An interesting note - when I took my recent LNT trainer course, they discussed a technique known as "Authority of the Resource".
That sounds like a good technique. Thanks!
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Old 11-09-2010, 12:42 PM   #48
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You sound like a bunch of grouchy, old men. They're kids, for god's sake! Let them blow off some steam and burn off some of that excess energy in the woods. As long as they're not chopping down trees or tossing trash, what harm are they doing? I too would prefer they not travel in herds or holler like banshees, but I sort of vaguely remember what it was like to be young. Tire them out a little, and then sit them down and try to pass on some lessons they'll remember. Give the leaders credit for donating their time. Stop expecting everybody to tiptoe around your expectations and desires. We all occasionally encounter an individual or group that mars our outdoor experience, but that's going to happen with the large number of people using the trails nowadays. Most folks are considerate and aware of their impact on others. Be grateful for that and stop obsessing over the ones that annoy you.
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Old 11-09-2010, 01:38 PM   #49
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You sound like a bunch of grouchy, old men. They're kids, for god's sake! Let them blow off some steam and burn off some of that excess energy in the woods. As long as they're not chopping down trees or tossing trash, what harm are they doing? I too would prefer they not travel in herds or holler like banshees, but I sort of vaguely remember what it was like to be young. Tire them out a little, and then sit them down and try to pass on some lessons they'll remember. Give the leaders credit for donating their time. Stop expecting everybody to tiptoe around your expectations and desires. We all occasionally encounter an individual or group that mars our outdoor experience, but that's going to happen with the large number of people using the trails nowadays. Most folks are considerate and aware of their impact on others. Be grateful for that and stop obsessing over the ones that annoy you.
I find this post annoying.

Yar, kids! Get off my lawn, er, I mean, my Adirondack Mountain!
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Old 11-09-2010, 02:12 PM   #50
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My apologies. In the future I'll be more tolerant of your crankiness. You kids be quiet! You know how grumpy Grandpa gets before his prunes start working.
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Old 11-09-2010, 03:12 PM   #51
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You sound like a bunch of grouchy, old men. They're kids, for god's sake! Let them blow off some steam and burn off some of that excess energy in the woods. As long as they're not chopping down trees or tossing trash, what harm are they doing? I too would prefer they not travel in herds or holler like banshees, but I sort of vaguely remember what it was like to be young. Tire them out a little, and then sit them down and try to pass on some lessons they'll remember. Give the leaders credit for donating their time. Stop expecting everybody to tiptoe around your expectations and desires. We all occasionally encounter an individual or group that mars our outdoor experience, but that's going to happen with the large number of people using the trails nowadays. Most folks are considerate and aware of their impact on others. Be grateful for that and stop obsessing over the ones that annoy you.
"They're just kids" is the mantra that has allowed many of them to become self centered, spoiled, rude, disrespecting brats.

Not all kids are the same, some are respectful, some aren't. If they aren't I do not have to accept their behavior because "they're just kids".

if an 11 year old stood out in front of your house and if every other word that came out of his mouth started with an F, would it be ok because "he's just a kid"?

Kids need to be taught respect and it's up to the adults to do it.

Accepting rude or disrespectful behavior because they're just kids is enabling them to be brats.

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Old 11-09-2010, 03:28 PM   #52
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No, you don't have to accept it...but in the OP, the point was simply that they were making noise, which then turned into a 'group size' discussion. 25 kids will make noise, it's pretty hard to stop it...and I would still suspect that the problem there has more to do with not knowing than with being brats. All Scout camps I've been to don't have group size limits, so if they're lucky enough to have such a large troop, they may have never encountered this issue before. And I'm sure the kids have no idea about that...and just as likely, they didn't even realize how loud they were being.

And if the issue is presented with as much respect as is expected in return, then it may well have been received and understood. However, if the scout leaders were approached with any kind of attitude (PW, you never have any attitude, do you? ) then they become defensive, instead of receptive.

Perhaps the real lesson here is one from Stephen Covey's bestseller "7 Habits of Highly Effective People"....

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"

As I mentioned earlier, it is my view that most people simply don't know - and would be willing to learn if not lectured. I know some take a more dim view of human behavior...

Let's not assume everyone is a spoiled, whiny, selfish brat until we actually confirm that...and then let's be sure that in our view of them, there isn't a bit of us being 'spoiled, whiny and selfish' too.
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:14 PM   #53
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No, you don't have to accept it...but in the OP, the point was simply that they were making noise, which then turned into a 'group size' discussion. 25 kids will make noise, it's pretty hard to stop it...and I would still suspect that the problem there has more to do with not knowing than with being brats. All Scout camps I've been to don't have group size limits, so if they're lucky enough to have such a large troop, they may have never encountered this issue before. And I'm sure the kids have no idea about that...and just as likely, they didn't even realize how loud they were being.

And if the issue is presented with as much respect as is expected in return, then it may well have been received and understood. However, if the scout leaders were approached with any kind of attitude (PW, you never have any attitude, do you? ) then they become defensive, instead of receptive.

Perhaps the real lesson here is one from Stephen Covey's bestseller "7 Habits of Highly Effective People"....

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood"

As I mentioned earlier, it is my view that most people simply don't know - and would be willing to learn if not lectured. I know some take a more dim view of human behavior...

Let's not assume everyone is a spoiled, whiny, selfish brat until we actually confirm that...and then let's be sure that in our view of them, there isn't a bit of us being 'spoiled, whiny and selfish' too.
I tried to be nice but one of the senior scouts was really scary....
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:16 PM   #54
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I went back and reread Paddlewheel's posts and I didn't see anything about the kids using profane language or being particularly rude or disrespectful. Just that they were loud and in too large of a group. Someone in front of my house is a much different scenario than encountering a group on a public trail. Not sure how that applies here. Fact is, I agree to an extent with the OP. I dont' think that large a group is appropriate, but I'd rather they have the chance to hike than not. Personally, when I heard them behind me I would've sat down and taken a break for 10 or 15 minutes. I'm so slow that once they went by I'd never catch them.
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:47 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by redhawk View Post

if an 11 year old stood out in front of your house and if every other word that came out of his mouth started with an F, would it be ok because "he's just a kid"?
Participating in a debate by taking the other person's point and blowing it so far out of proportion such that it no longer even comes close to fitting into the context of the ongoing discussion and then throwing it their face (almost as if it was their point to begin with) is not a tactic that leads to meaningful discussion.

Certainly not one that I would care to participate in.
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:07 PM   #56
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:14 PM   #57
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This circumstance is not a result of the BSA in general but of a group whose sound level was inconsistent with the expectations of the passerbys for the setting. Having not been there, I do not know if the noise level was "too much" or whether the passerbys expectations were "too little". Regardless, the noise level experienced was above the passerby's expectations.

The noise level of any group is generally proportional to the group size, differences in individuals notwithstanding. Boys are generally louder than girls, youngsters are generally louder than adults. People on a solo trip are usually expecting a quieter environment than those who are with others. Thus for me, the issue seemed to be the size of the group and the noise level a result of that size was inconsistent with what the passerby expected in that environment. It is unfortunate that the organization to which these boys (and adults) belong gets the rap, but that is the nature of being an identifiable organization. I know paddlewheel was trying to minimize the discussion from being about the BSA, but as soon as the group is identified with a label that becomes impossible.

I think the discussion as to group size is a good one. LNT principles recognize the impact of group size and those who follow the principles should be aware of their group size and its impact on the environment, of which sound is a part. BSA as an organization does promote the LNT principle although not all leaders abide by the principles fully just like many adults who are not scouters.
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:43 PM   #58
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Well said. Suffering arises from attachment, which is another word for expectations. We need to be flexible in our expectations. Treadway is a popular trailed hike. It's probably unreasonable to have a group of 25 kids up there yelling and shouting. It's also probably unreasonable to expect "solitude" up there. Reasonable expectations are somewhere in between. But if you go into a situation attached to your expectations, you will most likely end up unhappy. Best to be flexible: enjoy the solitude, when that's what you find; enjoy the company, when that's what you find. If you want to sure of having company, go to town; if you want to be sure of having solitude, bushwhack.
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:55 PM   #59
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QUOTE=backwoodsman;158224]One of the boys did manage to snap a photo of Paddlewheel during his little "fit". "Treadway Tom" is what they're calling him,don't mess with Treadway Tom.

Attachment 10622[/QUOTE]............I can't help it....I forgot to put my meds in my daypack...
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:02 PM   #60
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Well said. Suffering arises from attachment, which is another word for expectations. We need to be flexible in our expectations. Treadway is a popular trailed hike. It's probably unreasonable to have a group of 25 kids up there yelling and shouting. It's also probably unreasonable to expect "solitude" up there. Reasonable expectations are somewhere in between. But if you go into a situation attached to your expectations, you will most likely end up unhappy. Best to be flexible: enjoy the solitude, when that's what you find; enjoy the company, when that's what you find. If you want to sure of having company, go to town; if you want to be sure of having solitude, bushwhack.
You made a good point......I wasn't expecting solitude..What this whole thread is supposed to be about is I just felt a group that size was a liitle bit unreasonable..There was no nasty exchanges with anyone. Myself & my party did our best to keep our distance & do our thing..I just mostly wondered how other forum members felt about encountering excessively large groups in the Adk's.
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