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Old 07-19-2011, 08:47 PM   #61
colden46
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No...not directly. I was only making a throw-away comment. But there is an interesting balance between 'they should have known' vs. 'there's no way they could have known' commentary.

How about an interesting theoretical question - these same ladies come up to the High Peaks to go backpacking. Two days in to their trip a ranger finds them camped in the middle of the trail, and without a bear canister.

Should have known? or No way they could have known?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly was not arguing there was no way she could have known. It WAS her fault. As Hawk said, ignorance of the law is no defense. All I was disputing was his claim that learning all the laws and regulations is "easily accessible". If the 58,000 pages of regulations wasn't enough evidence, how about this:

About a dozen years ago the DEC changed the camping regulations for the High Peaks from "camping is allowed above 4000 feet in winter" to today's "no camping above 4000 anytime". There are a number of threads on ADK-HP in which numerous people post the old (wrong) information. These are presumably people that would be familiar with such things. After more than a decade, people STILL don't know. So I don't find it surprising at all that a non-camper could be unfamiliar with the firewood regulation.

Yes, I think the DEC could and should do a better job educating people about the regulation -- both its existence and, more importantly, the reason for its existence. All it takes is one person moving infested firewood to spread this thing halfway across the state. By comparison, the impact of someone camping in the middle of the trail is pretty low (which, to answer your question, is common sense enough that yes, someone SHOULD know that's not allowed. That said, I have camped in the middle of a trail, above 4000 feet, in an emergency a number of years ago).

Does it make it the DEC's fault? Does it absolve anyone of guilt? No. So put me down for "should have known, but completely conceivable that she did not know."
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Old 07-20-2011, 07:57 AM   #62
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I'll concede that if the perpetrators knew about the law but blatantly ignored it and/or disrespected the LE then they deserve the summons. I guess the COs probably let many people off the hook who were ignorant of the law and/or were apologetic.
Maybe I am just struggling with my own surrender to conformity or empathy?
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:37 AM   #63
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Humans are basicly a pack animal, therefore some conformity is necessary for the welfare of all. That's why some of the laws are needed.

I know many of us hate being told that we HAVE to do something, even though we are doing it already because we know it is the right thing to do. I think it's a flaw in our DNA although I've found it to be stronger in Americans then in other nationalities.

Back when we had the tribal system here, anyone who did not follow the "pack rules" was banished, because it dealt with the survival of the tribe. Now the consequences are not as severe ( then again, maybe they are long term), so many treat it as an intrusion.

At any rate, some rules are necessary in order to protect the futures of everyone else from those who would ignore or not find out about them.

As for the digging through the myriad of legislation, people dig through layers of Google to find out things they WANT to know. I don't find it unreasonable to expect them to do the same to find the things they NEED to know.

What is the DEC to do? Put every regulation on a separate website all by itself or send out a notice to every New Yorker as well as anyone who travels here every time there is a new regulation?

I mean, there is at least one thread on it here, has been for quite a while so it certainly is searchable. So if the news about the firewood and the regulation were not ound, it means either that no one was looking or that no one was paying attention.

The checkpoints, tickets and fines seem to have done their job in getting the public's attention.

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Old 07-20-2011, 10:53 PM   #64
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Oh please people, smarten up & take some responsibility for yourselves. Anyone who has camped in a DEC campground in the last 4 years received the “Don’t move firewood” pamphlet at check in. DEC started the educational process long before the regulation was in effect. I'm surprized that you dack lovin, peak baggin, bushwackin “outdoorsman” can’t irk yourselves enough to save the very thing you claim to love & enjoy. Try thinking about the greater good instead of your own sorry butt, we‘d be in a lot better shape if more people did! Pick up a few bags of wood at Stewarts, I think a magnifying glass & the sun can light it, throw a few logs in w/ any crappy local wood you might get stuck with & you’ll have a fine campfire. Also there is no need to have a Texas A&M, Burning Man bonfire, save your wood & your $$ with a nice controlled tranquil fire.
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:40 AM   #65
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Oh please people, smarten up & take some responsibility for yourselves. Anyone who has camped in a DEC campground in the last 4 years received the “Don’t move firewood” pamphlet at check in. DEC started the educational process long before the regulation was in effect. I'm surprized that you dack lovin, peak baggin, bushwackin “outdoorsman” can’t irk yourselves enough to save the very thing you claim to love & enjoy. Try thinking about the greater good instead of your own sorry butt, we‘d be in a lot better shape if more people did! Pick up a few bags of wood at Stewarts, I think a magnifying glass & the sun can light it, throw a few logs in w/ any crappy local wood you might get stuck with & you’ll have a fine campfire. Also there is no need to have a Texas A&M, Burning Man bonfire, save your wood & your $$ with a nice controlled tranquil fire.
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:44 AM   #66
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I sure do wish I had a button.
Yea, where is that thing? Didn't we find someone to fix that?
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:36 AM   #67
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Oh please people, smarten up & take some responsibility for yourselves. Anyone who has camped in a DEC campground in the last 4 years received the “Don’t move firewood” pamphlet at check in. DEC started the educational process long before the regulation was in effect. I'm surprized that you dack lovin, peak baggin, bushwackin “outdoorsman” can’t irk yourselves enough to save the very thing you claim to love & enjoy. Try thinking about the greater good instead of your own sorry butt, we‘d be in a lot better shape if more people did! Pick up a few bags of wood at Stewarts, I think a magnifying glass & the sun can light it, throw a few logs in w/ any crappy local wood you might get stuck with & you’ll have a fine campfire. Also there is no need to have a Texas A&M, Burning Man bonfire, save your wood & your $$ with a nice controlled tranquil fire.
The last time I camped in a DEC campground was 1973, which is way over four years ago, if my math is correct.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:45 AM   #68
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The last time I camped in a DEC campground was 1973, which is way over four years ago, if my math is correct.
Math sounds right to me!

Still - I've seen the signs at Stewarts, local restaurants, etc - so it's more than just being posted at DEC campgrounds.
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:54 AM   #69
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I don't think anyone on this forum would say you should bring your own firewood,that's always been a bad idea.They're only questioning how effective the present rules will be in stopping or slowing the EAB.Even if they completely stop it from entering the park by roads,people still camp at many places other than state camp grounds around the outside of the park.
Even if you educate everyone,there are still those who don't care,the same ones who trash campsites,cut live trees,ect.
I assume they realize they're not suppose to leave behind beer cans and wreck leantos,so why would they care about the EAB.
It's not just the DEC campgrounds where the bugs can spread from,heck I've found firewood over 3mi. in the woods that someone had carried in,all split up in a five gallon bucket.
The measures being taken are based on the current state of the science of invasive species control. And lessons learned from this effort will no doubt forward the state of that science to help us better deal with the next invasion.

From DEC's Emerald Ash Borer Management Response Plan...

Quote:
IV. Private Land Services EAB Management Response Plan Goal: “SLow Ash Mortality” or “SLAM”

Simply stated, our Bureau’s goal in responding to EAB is to keep as many ash trees alive as possible, in as much of New York State as possible, for as long as possible.

Our mantra for EAB, and all other invasive, exotic forest pests, has been: “early detection, rapid response”. When exclusion efforts fail, the next best protection tool is intensive surveying and monitoring which enables infestations to be detected quickly, and early, while they are still relatively small. Early detections must then be delimited, and evaluated, to determine their extent, intensity and (where possible) age. While infestations are still relatively small and isolated, a suite of appropriate control measures can then be rapidly implemented to (1) reduce the pest’s population, minimize the population’s growth and limit its natural spread to adjacent areas. These measures will, in turn, reduce or slow the rate of ash mortality from EAB infestation. This concept, as being developed by the research community, is known as “Slow Ash Mortality”, or SLAM.

Aggressively pursuing a SLAM approach, on our multiple program fronts, will achieve numerous benefits for the State. We can:
  • Save economic value and preserve value growth as long as possible on ash timber trees on private forests, to the direct benefit of forest owners;
  • Save yard and community ash trees for as long as possible, providing continuing, tangible benefits for homeowners and municipalities;
  • Forestall the need for expensive and repeated chemical treatments of high-value landscape or urban trees to protect them from imminent EAB attack;
  • Postpone time when urban ash trees are killed by EAB, become hazards and must be removed, forcing costs on homeowners and communities;
  • Buy time for research to develop better protection and control measures(chemical, biological);
  • Buy time for communities to budget and prepare for calculated and planned ash treatments, removals, disposal and replacement;
  • Support ash timber markets and ash-dependent industries for as long as possible by maintaining a steady supply of raw material, and avoid flooding markets with ash timber unnecessarily and beyond the markets’ capacity to absorb (i.e. baseball bats, tool handles, basket-making) which would drive value and prices down.
The US Forest Service’s Gypsy Moth “Slow-The-Spread Program”, implemented at the perimeter of the known Gypsy moth infested area since 1993, has demonstrated that considerable economic and ecological benefits can be gained by slowing the rate at which gypsy moth populations build and spread spatially. A similar approach, applied to EAB, could yield even greater benefits. In the past five years, scientists have learned much about the biology of this invasive pest. Technology and methods for EAB survey and control have progressed considerably. Continued research may yield more options for EAB management and increase the effectiveness of existing technology.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:38 AM   #70
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Don't you need "Probable cause" to allow search & inspection?
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:58 AM   #71
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Don't you need "Probable cause" to allow search & inspection?
I would imagine so. For example, a vehicle with Ohio plates hauling a load of firewood in a trailer. Or, a truck full of drive-in camping gear. Or if a trooper asks you if you have any firewood in your vehicle and you respond "Um, um, um,... nope."
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Old 07-21-2011, 12:23 PM   #72
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I would imagine so. For example, a vehicle with Ohio plates hauling a load of firewood in a trailer. Or, a truck full of drive-in camping gear. Or if a trooper asks you if you have any firewood in your vehicle and you respond "Um, um, um,... nope."
Exactly. Probably cause would be when they ask if you have firewood and the second you say yes.
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:36 PM   #73
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smarten up & take some responsibility for yourselves.
obviously this point is having a hard time finding it's intended target

Scoots - Thanks for the

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Old 07-21-2011, 09:32 PM   #74
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Still - I've seen the signs at Stewarts, local restaurants, etc - so it's more than just being posted at DEC campgrounds.
I've seen the signs posted at rest areas and toll booths. They are just about everywhere.
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:52 AM   #75
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Scoots - Thanks for the
You're entirely welcome. And, for those who didn't notice, it's an active link. Go ahead, click it.
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:35 AM   #76
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my only comment to this is that this is the most stupid regulation (IMO) the state has come up with in my short term memory.. basically an un enforceable (welllll... ) regulation.. Self issued permit that is meaningless unless you don’t issue (falsify) one or two, maybe 3 depending on how far you go..

Basically what I'm saying is being a logger for 9 years there is no regulations for the industry.. Why ? It's an industry not recreation..
So all that being said when this first came about I have written to my congress men/woman that we are being told to reduce our consumption and dependency on Big Oil Right ?
well how does this work ? Lets say I own an 800 acre wood lot exactly 82 miles from my primary house.. Now I am not able to heat my house from a renewable resource such as wood because I cant transport it with my truck but a logging company can take it anywhere they please ??

I say that is bogus and I will carry those stupid papers that start and end every 49 miles..

Campfire wood .. well just put in a little effort in and scavenge it locally..
Now go hug a tree before I go and cut it down..
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Old 07-24-2011, 11:42 AM   #77
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my only comment to this is that this is the most stupid regulation (IMO) the state has come up with in my short term memory.. basically an un enforceable (welllll... ) regulation.. Self issued permit that is meaningless unless you don’t issue (falsify) one or two, maybe 3 depending on how far you go..

Basically what I'm saying is being a logger for 9 years there is no regulations for the industry.. Why ? It's an industry not recreation..
So all that being said when this first came about I have written to my congress men/woman that we are being told to reduce our consumption and dependency on Big Oil Right ?
well how does this work ? Lets say I own an 800 acre wood lot exactly 82 miles from my primary house.. Now I am not able to heat my house from a renewable resource such as wood because I cant transport it with my truck but a logging company can take it anywhere they please ??

I say that is bogus and I will carry those stupid papers that start and end every 49 miles..

Campfire wood .. well just put in a little effort in and scavenge it locally..
Now go hug a tree before I go and cut it down..
Unenforceable? According to the OP it IS being enforced. "Two women Charged with Firewood Violation". How about a lot of the boating laws? How many people are actually ticketed for violation in proportion to how many violate them? How about poachers? How many actually get ticketed? Speeders for that matter? How many actually get caught compared to how many violate the law? Stupid, unenforceable. Throw them all out.

As for the logging industry. I don't know that there aren't any regulations of some kind, someone here said there was, BUT, it's a different situation. Most wood ends up being used in manufacturing or pulp and not as firewood more then 50 miles from where it's taken. Also most loggers would be aware of the danger from the Emerald Ash Borer since infestation would hurt their industry. There are those I suppose who might not, looking only at short term profit so perhaps a regulation is needed to protect the environment and the industry from them.

Finally, I don't really consider firewood as a renewable resource. If too many people use wood for fuel, then the need and the greed would outstrip the resources faster then they could be renewed. Plus the wood would not be aged properly and the pollution would be worse.

I recently read a book called "Collapse". It used science to compare some ancient cultures and determine why many failed (Collapsed) and a few prevailed. A major cause of the collapse was that they outcut their trees rates of growth.

So, the regulation is necessary, is being enforced where possible, and it has a sound basis behind it.

Nothing stupid about it.

Hawk
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Old 07-24-2011, 11:45 AM   #78
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Isn't lumber either kiln dried or chemically treated? The kiln drying will kill the insects...in fact, the NY regulation allows kiln dried wood to be transported anywhere.
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Old 07-24-2011, 11:55 AM   #79
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Or you can do what I do - stop anywhere along the road in the forest preserve, pop open your trunk, walk into the woods with a sharp bow saw, and cut as much dead and down wood you can find into perfect logs - load up trunk with as much as you need...and in 15 or 20 minutes you have 1 or 2 nights of firewood for FREE. I think this is legal - I don't see why it would not be. If it isn't it's a small no no. They allow you to use dead and down wood when you're camping in the forest preserve. Is there any law that says that you must find it within close proximity to where you are camping?
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Old 07-24-2011, 11:57 AM   #80
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The regulation isn't a total waste, after all it helps assuage the ego of the self righteous. Like a lot of laws it has good intentions but ludicrous in practicality. Those two women apparently were too innocent to circumvent the law and for their naivety were punished. The real law breakers scoff at this law. Evidently few have compassion for those who are less able to be informed for what ever reason. Funny thing is my brother who is a graduate of Paul Smiths, is well traveled, and well read, knew about the Ash borer but was incredulous when I revealed the permit issue. I guess I am smarter than him and therefore hold him in contempt. I might even turn him in as I once saw him driving without his seat belt fastened. How could someone have such a total disregard of the law?

"Campfire wood .. well just put in a little effort in and scavenge it locally..
Now go hug a tree before I go and cut it down.."

Everyone likes trees, some like them vertical and some like them horizontal. I like them vertical but am trying to see the whole forest amongst the individual trees.
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