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Old 09-20-2007, 12:15 PM   #41
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Probably something worth mentioning is the differance between horizonal distance vs traveled distance.

Horizonal distance is what you measure on a map and does not include vertical distance traveled. Traveled distance is what the wheel measures and does include vertical distance. Depending on the contour of the trip, this can add up to considerable differences between the two.
I "suspected" that very thing at one point some years ago, and did a little math to test the idea. Using the Pythagorean Theorem, as demonstrated above by wildriver, I calculated that gaining 1,000 ft of elevation in continuous ascent across a mile of linear distance would mean walking all of 100 ft more than if I covered that mile on the level. That's just under a 2% increase in distance -- fairly minor, in my book.

We have been discussing here a measurement range of 4.7 to 5.9 miles for the walk from Indian Lake Road to Brooktrout Lake. That puts the discrepancy in the 20% - 25% range, depending upon which of those two figures you use as a base. I would call that significant.

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Old 09-20-2007, 12:18 PM   #42
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Feel free to let me know if I flunked the algebra test.
I think you passed. I didn't have the time to do the calculations earlier, but you confirmed my inutition that the vertical contribution to overall distance traveled would be minor. If you've ever looked at an elevation profile vs. distance, the vertical scale has to be considerably exaggerated to visualize much meaningful vertical change with distance, unless you are in the Himalayas or Andes.

On the other hand, a long accepted rule of thumb is to increase your time by 30 minutes for every 1000 feet of elevation gain, assuming an otherwise good trail. Just knowing the distance along a trail to the destination is not enough to get a good travel time estimate.
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Old 09-20-2007, 01:36 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I "suspected" that very thing at one point some years ago, and did a little math to test the idea. Using the Pythagorean Theorem, as demonstrated above by wildriver, I calculated that gaining 1,000 ft of elevation in continuous ascent across a mile of linear distance would mean walking all of 100 ft more than if I covered that mile on the level. That's just under a 2% increase in distance -- fairly minor, in my book.

We have been discussing here a measurement range of 4.7 to 5.9 miles for the walk from Indian Lake Road to Brooktrout Lake. That puts the discrepancy in the 20% - 25% range, depending upon which of those two figures you use as a base. I would call that significant.

G.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to explain the large differences that have been mentioned in this thread. The surveyor in me was just trying to making a point.
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Old 09-20-2007, 02:07 PM   #44
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Just a dumb question, but has anyone verified that the 5.6 vs 4.8 miles given in the two books are actually measured between the same two points? For example, one could be from the start of the trail and the other could be from, say, the Otter Brook bridge, which from a quick glance at the map is about 0.8mi from the start of the actual trail.
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Old 10-19-2007, 02:25 AM   #45
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Well let's see...To add a jocularity factor....

I brew my own beer, so I'm at my campsite, and there are 4 persons at this campsite. There are 2 males and 2 females. We have packed in 3 gals of "Hogan's Perfect Pumpkin Ale". Now, at a conservative consumption rate of 2 liters per hour and the basic knowledge that after that "first" tree visit, tree visits are averaged at once per 20 minutes, how far would the average person walk in a 4 hour time span?

Oh, and it is common knowledge that women will walk 400% farther on their "tree visits" then men. Please select your answer :

A. 800 meters

B. 2 kilometers

c. 3 kilometers (once the porcupines show up)

D. 200 meters and a great way to put the campfire out

E. 18 kilometers including the time spent to find the one who lost their way


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Old 10-19-2007, 03:34 PM   #46
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I think that for the sake objectivity it should be disclosed that wildriver is the co-author of the "Discover the Adirondacks" series and has a vested financial interest in them.

Having said that, I will also state that it's a fine series of books. My reason for suggesting the ADK guidebooks in answer to the original posters question, was in conjunction with the Trails Illustrated maps. That gives them the edge.

Hawk
I will throw in my two cents here as well from a different perspective. Both the Discover series and the ADK guidebooks are very good. I prefer the ADK for two reasons using the High Peaks Guide as an example. The first reason for this preference is the ADK guide describes every trail to each of the peaks. Detailed measurements are provided at frequent intervals for each trail. Enough information is given to allow for planning the hike. They do not include opinionated comments. The second reason is a very good map is included showing all available trails and identifies private property lines. The maps themselves are made to last.

As I said the Discover is very good but the page maps are often hard to read and cover a very limited area. you need to supplement with topo maps which often do not have accurate and up to date trail overlays. Though the opinions expressed can be interesting they take up space that could be used to provide more useful info. I don't really care what the author thinks about the latest environmental issue no matter how well thought out and expressed his or her ideas are. I'd rather have more real trail info.

Now that I am out west I can really see what a good service these guide books offer. The series of guides available here are pretty close to useless. I bought three new guides by the Mountaineers. Hyped as definitive guides they offer almost no information. A description is typically three paragraphs with two of those paragraphs being a diatribe of the author's view of wilderness. Set up as a 100 hikes format, the page maps only show the trail described and ignore other trails in the area. The trail description will mention a trail jct without telling you where the joining trail goes. And since they did not bother to illustrate it on the map you can only guess. Fortunately there is one series of maps that have fairly accurate trail overlays so you can toss the faux guides and work with them.

So whether you prefer the ADK Guides, the Discover Series or even the AMC White Mountain Guides rest assured you farther ahead with any one of them than I am with the junk they offer out here.
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Old 10-20-2007, 09:23 AM   #47
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Discrepancies in measuring distance

I've read a lot of reasons why distances are sometimes in error in measuring walked trail distances. So here's my $.02 worth.

In the error of .8 miles in the example discussed, WildRiver used the Pythagorean method of calculating the vertical distance walked needed to make up this discrepancy. However, the use of the Pythagorean Theorem should also apply to the horizontal twists and turns that are walked as well as the vertical climbs AND descents. We all know there is no such thing as a straight line while walking the trails - either vertical or horizontal. So let's try a bit of Calculus ...... just kiddin' .

However, even in the .8 mile error, the measurements (say, use of topo map or measuring wheel) must both be exact to get an "accurate error" so that an approximation in the use of the 3D Pythagorean method can be compared to 2D chart distances traveled.
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Old 10-20-2007, 11:15 AM   #48
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When it comes down to the nitty gritty of distance and hiking, at least for a hike that is only several miles in length.

I figure when i get there, I will be there, and will have traveled whatever distance I have walked.

How far I have traveled is not important. What is important is what i have experienced between the time I left and the time I arrived. The longer the distance, the more I experience.

I leave my calculus, my algorithms, and above all my Pythagorean methods back in the world of hustle and bustle.

It's all about relaxation and enjoyment.


ARE WE THERE YET??
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Old 10-20-2007, 12:27 PM   #49
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ARE WE THERE YET??
Just six more miles........
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:18 PM   #50
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The "Discover" series is the best, hands down!

http://www.hiketheadirondacks.com/

What's your collection look like?

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Old 05-31-2014, 06:17 AM   #51
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Here is a small part of my collection of books. These are the ADK guidebooks and the Discover Series.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2014-05-31 06.14.04.jpg (147.0 KB, 69 views)
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Old 05-31-2014, 12:08 PM   #52
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The "Discover" series is the best, hands down!

http://www.hiketheadirondacks.com/

What's your collection look like?
The "Best" is a matter of conjecture. It depends on personal preferences. The Discover series has excellent descriptions of what you will see on the hike as well as very detailed directions. So it's the "best" series for those who want that.

The ADK series is less descriptive but does have the advantage of having it's trails shown on the National Geographic's 5 Adirondack maps. If one is looking to paddle than there are several paddlers maps. So, it's subjective. There are also many of us who would prefer to discover what is around the next been or over the next ridge ourselves. So, it's all subjective.

All that being said, the Discover series is an excellent set of guides to the Adirondacks and the "best" who are looking for the details that are included. I would not hesitate to recommend them to those seeking the information.

I also remember a few years back when someone asked on this forum about the best guidebooks with maps and I clearly recommended the ADK series because of the NG maps. They were the "best" for what that person was seeking.
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Old 05-31-2014, 06:48 PM   #53
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Here is a small part of my collection of books. These are the ADK guidebooks and the Discover Series.
Nice!
I have several ADK guidebooks also, as well as paddling guides, and other Adirondack related books. I've been reading the Discover books since I was a little kid, hence why they are my favorite.
The photo I shared was from a post on facebook, and I thought why not share it here also.
Any other guidebook collection photos?
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Old 05-31-2014, 08:10 PM   #54
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Nice!
I have several ADK guidebooks also, as well as paddling guides, and other Adirondack related books. I've been reading the Discover books since I was a little kid, hence why they are my favorite.
The photo I shared was from a post on facebook, and I thought why not share it here also.
Any other guidebook collection photos?
Not enough of others to make a decent photo. But I do have a nice collection of Backcountry Cookbooks.
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:38 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by redhawk View Post
When it comes down to the nitty gritty of distance and hiking, at least for a hike that is only several miles in length.

I figure when i get there, I will be there, and will have traveled whatever distance I have walked.

How far I have traveled is not important. What is important is what i have experienced between the time I left and the time I arrived. The longer the distance, the more I experience.

I leave my calculus, my algorithms, and above all my Pythagorean methods back in the world of hustle and bustle.

It's all about relaxation and enjoyment.


ARE WE THERE YET??
after reading back through this thread I must say this post in my opinion contains the most wisdom out of them all, who cares,
you will get there when you get there just make sure to enjoy every part of the journey
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