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Old 12-20-2010, 08:13 PM   #81
Aristera
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ESF study on foraging coyotes

Found this pdf is on the NYSDEC site. It's about a study by ESF on coyotes. One thing that stuck out was that a female with 7 pups killed 10 fawns in three weeks, while a non-bred female killed none.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/esfcoyote09.pdf

ESF's link to more coyote info is..

http://www.esf.edu/efb/frair/coyote/coyote_main.htm
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:29 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
I have no scientific evidince just my opinion. I think more fawns are killed in the street than by coyotes.
I don't think I have ever seen a road-killed fawn.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:31 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Aristera View Post
Found this pdf is on the NYSDEC site. It's about a study by ESF on coyotes. One thing that stuck out was that a female with 7 pups killed 10 fawns in three weeks, while a non-bred female killed none.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/esfcoyote09.pdf

ESF's link to more coyote info is..

http://www.esf.edu/efb/frair/coyote/coyote_main.htm
I would love to know the credentials of the authors of this study.
Are they experts in the field or are they college students doing thesis's.?
No judgment,really, just interested in what ESF is publishing, and whether we should trust the results without more study.
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Old 12-20-2010, 10:33 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by chairrock View Post
I would love to know the credentials of the authors of this study.
Are they experts in the field or are they college students doing thesis's.?
No judgment,really, just interested in what ESF is publishing, and whether we should trust the results without more study.
If you look at the site, you will find information about the authors of the study, which includes two professors, one DEC person, one person from Furbearer Management Team, and two graduate students. Each of the two SUNY professors has a link to information on their background.


Principal Investigators:
Dr. Jacqueline Frair
Assistant Professor, SUNY-ESF
Illick Hall, 1 Forestry Drive
Syracuse, NY 13210
jfrair@esf.edu
www.esf.edu/efb/frair

Dr. James Gibbs
Associate Professor, SUNY-ESF
Illick Hall, 1 FOrestry Drive
Syracuse, NY 13210
www.esf.edu/efb/gibbs

Gordon Batcheller
Wildlife Services Team, NYS Department of Environmental Conservation
625 Broadway
5th floor, Albany NY 12233-4754

Paul Jensen
Furbearer Management Team, NYS
Department of Environmental COnservation
232 Hudson St. Extension
Warrensburg NY 12885-0220

Graduate Students:

Robin Holevinski
Ph.D. Candidate
SUNY-ESF
244a Illick Hall
1 Forestry Drive
Syracuse NY 1321-
raholevy@syr.edu

Christina Boser
M.S. Candidate
SUNY-ESF
244a Illick Hall
1 Forestry Drive
Syracuse NY 13210
clboser@syr.edu
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:46 AM   #85
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[QUOTE=Dick;160418]If you look at the site,

Thanks Dick, all of that info was just a click away! Seems pretty substantial.
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:40 AM   #86
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No doubt, what should the number of deer be, several hundred years ago there was mostly virgin timber, I wonder what the numbers were then, when the population mostly fluctuated from things other than man.
I'm sure the Deer population was very low but with very healthy herds and big ranges.

As hawk pointed out earlier clearings do happen naturally. If you ever burned some pine that's been out a season...But I think the forest looked very different "virgin", with many more hardwoods that had nuts for the animals to eat. We have mostly pine now because it grows fast.
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:58 AM   #87
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Just looked at Aristera's links and wonder if coyotes where the bulk of the study was done (Stubing and Ostego Counties) where the deer popupation is much greater then here in the Adirondacks if the results would differ much. Also they state that they believe that coyote preditation on the deer herd wouldn't effect the herd, however if you have lets say 1000 coyotes and 500 are females with pups that kill 10 fawns in 3 weeks that amounts to 5000 deer that are gone in just 3 weeks, and 10,000 in 6 weeks. How can this not effect the herd?
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:00 AM   #88
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[QUOTE=chairrock;160427]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick View Post
If you look at the site,

Thanks Dick, all of that info was just a click away!
Actually not for Mac and/or Firefox users. The buttons didn't work for me (Mac), so I had to cut and paste the links (provided at the bottom of the page) to find the information.

Dick
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:08 AM   #89
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[QUOTE=Dick;160432]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chairrock View Post

Actually not for Mac and/or Firefox users. The buttons didn't work for me (Mac), so I had to cut and paste the links (provided at the bottom of the page) to find the information.

Dick

Ahhh, that is why ...I thought it was just dead links or something.
Thanks ,again.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:33 AM   #90
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Just looked at Aristera's links and wonder if coyotes where the bulk of the study was done (Stubing and Ostego Counties) where the deer popupation is much greater then here in the Adirondacks if the results would differ much. Also they state that they believe that coyote preditation on the deer herd wouldn't effect the herd, however if you have lets say 1000 coyotes and 500 are females with pups that kill 10 fawns in 3 weeks that amounts to 5000 deer that are gone in just 3 weeks, and 10,000 in 6 weeks. How can this not effect the herd?
As the astute Mao Zedong once said, now the population is in line with the food supply.

From that study 92% of winter deer carcasses were thought to be scavanged and not killed, and 1 of the kills had a leg injury. The issue you are having is extrapolating the data from 1 extremely successful hunter and applying to all coyotes. Also a fawn is most vulnurable in that first 3 week period and the survival rates probably increase precipitously from there.

Another tid bit I came across is the litter of coyotes can range from 1 to 19 with an average of 6!
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:24 PM   #91
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I have read that hunters can not significantly affect the coyote population as the females will produce bigger litters if their range is good habitat and is not overpopulated by coyotes.

I have also read that deer numbers in the Adirondacks were not particularly high when they were first settled due to the mature forest that existed. Clearcutting as was practiced years ago wiped out much habitat but then provided excellent habitat once the undergrowth grew back.

I read these tidbits some time ago and have no idea what the sources were--just have my recollection to go on which seems to be fading as I age!
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:44 PM   #92
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Trapping is a much more efficient way to keep coyote numbers in check, but it has to be annual. Just removing a few isn't going to help, you need to get a lot of them and do it every year. It works well but it's a lot of work for the trapper. Coyotes are bringing 12-15 dollars per pelt right now so it's not really very lucrative.

As ugly as clearcutting is, small clearcuts create very good browse for deer and other wildlife. Large scale clearcutting hurts the deer because they need thick softwood cover. So like anything there's a happy medium between too much and too little.
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:05 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Pumpkin QAAD View Post
As the astute Mao Zedong once said, now the population is in line with the food supply.

From that study 92% of winter deer carcasses were thought to be scavanged and not killed, and 1 of the kills had a leg injury. The issue you are having is extrapolating the data from 1 extremely successful hunter and applying to all coyotes. Also a fawn is most vulnurable in that first 3 week period and the survival rates probably increase precipitously from there.

Another tid bit I came across is the litter of coyotes can range from 1 to 19 with an average of 6!
But it also stated it ONLY checked 39 carcuses. Probably in deer winter yards where most of the data is collected. One will find very few fawns if any there. Incidently the information didn't come from a hunter it came fron DEC web site
http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/esfcoyote09.pdf
compiled by
Holevinski and Frair SUNY University of Environmental Science and Forestry a Gordon Bachlor and Paul Jensen of New York State Dept. of Environmental Conservation.

Even if we do the math with your figures on 1000 coyotes and only 8% of healthy deer are killed off with .5 deer per sq mile here in the Adirondacks it still leaves an impact. Probably more noticable then in the lower part of the state where the herd has greater numbers.
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:08 PM   #94
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There is a chapter in M. Pollan's book "Second Nature" about a tornado that wiped out a block of old growth forest called "Cathedral Pines" in New England and how the label "virgin" is a misnomer. It deals with how the term is defined e.g. pre-European, pre- American Indian ( did the Indian create the wilderness we call the Great Plains with fire?),etc. So in relation to this thread, things are always evolving. You can try to stop it if you like and good luck. While your getting rid of the coyotes also get rid of all the other non-natives like earthworms and dandelions. Oh yeah and bring back the wolf and puma and woodland bison (were they here?).

Apologize if this post is a non sequitur

Last edited by geogymn; 12-21-2010 at 01:13 PM.. Reason: Because of mindless tendencies
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:20 PM   #95
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This is an interesting topic of discussion, but all that I've read indicates that as a practical matter if one concludes that coyotes are a problem for a deer and deer are the more important animal, it is almost impossible to control them unless one wants to undertake a sustained 19th century extermination campaign.

In other words, we've got to accept them as just being another immutable factor making things tough for deer in the Adirondacks!

As for the effect of logging, one thing to keep in mind is that witch hobble, which is one of the top browse foods for deer, grows most abundantly in old-growth areas, and is pretty much absent from those that have been extensively logged within 50 years or so. If I had to identify the absolute worst areas for deer, I'd point to an area that's been logged in the last 10-30 years, where all the browse has grown up and the understory has yet to fill in.

Also, loggers tend to salivate over thick stands of mature spruce, which happens to be required for the most critical deer habitat in the Adirondacks, deer yards. My guess is that's why you see a lot of deer yards nowadays in populated areas in the Adirondacks.
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Old 12-21-2010, 04:05 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by adkman12986 View Post
But it also stated it ONLY checked 39 carcuses. Probably in deer winter yards where most of the data is collected. One will find very few fawns if any there. Incidently the information didn't come from a hunter it came fron DEC web site
http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/esfcoyote09.pdf
compiled by
Holevinski and Frair SUNY University of Environmental Science and Forestry a Gordon Bachlor and Paul Jensen of New York State Dept. of Environmental Conservation.

Even if we do the math with your figures on 1000 coyotes and only 8% of healthy deer are killed off with .5 deer per sq mile here in the Adirondacks it still leaves an impact. Probably more noticable then in the lower part of the state where the herd has greater numbers.
Oh I know it didn't come from hunters I was suggesting you can't look at the kill rates of 1 coyote (the good hunter with 10 kills in 3 weeks) and say every coyote is that successful. But I would agree 100% that coyote kill and to a greater extent harass deer. If you are a hunter of deer you don't want them around peeing near your stand or spooking up game. Well maybe the latter isn't so bad if they chase em into your spot!

I seen some real healthy bucks smooshed on the road!


I just think if the coyotes didn't kill the 8% then there would be less food left all around to survive a harsh winter leading to bigger herd losses. Actually that's our hunting argument.

I would need to dig deep into the brain but if every doe had a fawn and that fawn had a doe next year how many would need to die in order for the population not to grow. Wouldn't the annual kill rate have to be closer to 50% of the deer population ?

I realize deer die from many things but coyotes don't appear to be the major cause of death, which appears to be maxing out the dead of winter food or really harsh weather. Whatever it is in winter that kills them.

They probably do one heck of a job on those new fawns though almost as much as bears I bet if not more.

Im sort of in fisher's camp on this one in the end but it was an interesting debate for sure.

thanks.
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Old 12-21-2010, 04:21 PM   #97
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The neighbors tell me they hear the yotes singing at night here in Yates County, just north of Steuben, where some of the study was done. I have yet to hear them, see them , or see any sign of them. This fall we were fortunate to harvest some deer, the gut piles are still out there. The only thing I've seen on the one pile is a red tailed hawk. Hopefully the trail-cam will get a few pics. In the ADKs, any gut pile I left was gone over night, I assume to the yotes. Maybe there are more south of us.Not here..Deer are thicker than flys on poop here. Farm country with oak/hickory/butternut//pine forest.Between my wife and I, we could have filled 8 tags.Jeze...20 minutes left... better get outside!
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Old 12-21-2010, 04:24 PM   #98
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[QUOTE=Pumpkin QAAD;160459]If you are a hunter of deer you don't want them around peeing near your stand or spooking up game. Well maybe the latter isn't so bad if they chase em into your spot!

QUOTE]

Didn't we used to use coyote urine as a cover scent when bow hunting? Or was that fox urine? Definitely skunk scent...
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Old 12-21-2010, 06:26 PM   #99
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Oh I know it didn't come from hunters I was suggesting you can't look at the kill rates of 1 coyote (the good hunter with 10 kills in 3 weeks) and say every coyote is that successful. But I would agree 100% that coyote kill and to a greater extent harass deer. If you are a hunter of deer you don't want them around peeing near your stand or spooking up game. Well maybe the latter isn't so bad if they chase em into your spot!

I seen some real healthy bucks smooshed on the road!


I just think if the coyotes didn't kill the 8% then there would be less food left all around to survive a harsh winter leading to bigger herd losses. Actually that's our hunting argument.

I would need to dig deep into the brain but if every doe had a fawn and that fawn had a doe next year how many would need to die in order for the population not to grow. Wouldn't the annual kill rate have to be closer to 50% of the deer population ?

I realize deer die from many things but coyotes don't appear to be the major cause of death, which appears to be maxing out the dead of winter food or really harsh weather. Whatever it is in winter that kills them.

They probably do one heck of a job on those new fawns though almost as much as bears I bet if not more.

Im sort of in fisher's camp on this one in the end but it was an interesting debate for sure.

thanks.
Yes it was an interesting debate and informative. I would ad one more thing that winters, bears, humans, etc all play an important roll in the echo system and it is important not to over step our roll.
Thank you
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Old 12-21-2010, 06:29 PM   #100
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The neighbors tell me they hear the yotes singing at night here in Yates County, just north of Steuben, where some of the study was done. I have yet to hear them, see them , or see any sign of them. This fall we were fortunate to harvest some deer, the gut piles are still out there. The only thing I've seen on the one pile is a red tailed hawk. Hopefully the trail-cam will get a few pics. In the ADKs, any gut pile I left was gone over night, I assume to the yotes. Maybe there are more south of us.Not here..Deer are thicker than flys on poop here. Farm country with oak/hickory/butternut//pine forest.Between my wife and I, we could have filled 8 tags.Jeze...20 minutes left... better get outside!
Intrested in sharing your secret area
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