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Old 10-25-2005, 03:48 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poconoron
It's probably more "fair" to say that ALL the people of NY State should have a say over an important question such as this- since ALL New Yorkers "own" these public lands. But people living within the Park should have no more of a say than others. And as others have said, the ADKs are a very unique place where some definition of "wilderness" still applies- there are very few places in the East, if any, where this can be said.?
THANK YOU!

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Originally Posted by poconoron
Where better than the ADKs for restoring a predator to the ecosystem that was ruthlessly wiped out because of fear and misconceptions?
You might as well add greed, selfishness and ignorance to that as well - which is still, unfortunately, alive and strong today.
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Old 10-25-2005, 03:50 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Rik
This is fine for state land but much of the park is private lands.
You're right, and unfortuantely the mighty dollar rules, but even that is debatable.

If the state could afford it I wish they could just forcefully buy the land at fair market value.
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Old 10-25-2005, 03:53 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twochordcool
WWRROONNGG!!

You happen to live there and I am sorry that you have to live by it's rules.

Nevertheless, it IS a unique place and MUST be protected.

You're probably there because your father and grandfather logged trees to survive there.

If I could find a job there as an Aircraft Electrician on helicopters I would. And then I would suck it up, "acknowledge" where I lived, and live by it's rules.
Like many of your posts this is condescending and stereotyping. You know nothing about me. And instead of disagreeing you say I'm wrong. Again, those outside the park know better. Just look how well they have taken care of land outside the park.
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Old 10-25-2005, 03:57 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twochordcool

If the state could afford it I wish they could just forcefully buy the land at fair market value.
And close it off completely right? To protect it? Or wait, who is going to decide what activities are ok and what ones aren't? Do we talk snowmobiles, hunting, trail running? Let me guess. The real smart people outside the park are going to decide?
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Old 10-25-2005, 03:59 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik
Like many of your posts this is condescending and stereotyping. You know nothing about me. And instead of disagreeing you say I'm wrong. Again, those outside the park know better. Just look how well they have taken care of land outside the park.
I know a lot of people survive inside the park on tourism and logging - I ventured a guess. I'm smart enough to know that it is possible that you and your ancestors are some of the lucky few that have carved out a living there doing something else.

And I don't know what your point is about what we have done outside of the park? It IS land that IS outside of the park and we all know that realistically not everything can be protected - which brings me exactly to my point.
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Old 10-25-2005, 04:01 PM   #66
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Lets stay on topic, which is the reintroduction wolves to the Adirondacks. We had a good dialog with some good information going. If we can’t get back to that dialog than this thread may need to be closed. I suggest everyone step away for a bit to allow things to cool down, before things get too personal.
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Old 10-25-2005, 04:02 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik
And close it off completely right? To protect it? Or wait, who is going to decide what activities are ok and what ones aren't? Do we talk snowmobiles, hunting, trail running? Let me guess. The real smart people outside the park are going to decide?
I think REASONABLE things should be allowed, depending on where it is.
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Old 10-25-2005, 04:03 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumberzac
Lets stay on topic, which is the reintroduction wolves to the Adirondacks. We had a good dialog with some good information going. If we can’t get back to that dialog than this thread may need to be closed. I suggest everyone step away for a bit to allow things to cool down, before things get too personal.
I think what we are saying is relevant and interconnected and related to the topic.
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Old 10-25-2005, 04:44 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twochordcool
I think REASONABLE things should be allowed, depending on where it is.
But who decides what is REASONABLE? And who decides where? This is really my only point. Zac, I think it is relevant to the conversation as well. Obviously opinions vary on the topic of reintroduction and all opinions should be treated fairly. Usually when decisions are made they are made by those in a certain jurisdiction (sp?). In a county election those that live in that county vote, in a state election those in that state vote,...If a decision is to be made for the Adirondack Park then those that live there should be a big part of that decision making. Their opinions matter. If it was up to me no one would own property and we would make all decisions as a community but that is not the case here in America. Eminent domain borders on totalitarian. Again who decides? "Elected officials"? Those that have the money to "support" elected officials? A majority? Naw that sounds too much like democracy. Did I mention I would like wolves in the park?
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Old 10-25-2005, 05:02 PM   #70
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And my only point is that votes made by people that live within the blue line should not carry any more weight than votes made by people that live outside of it.

And when it comes to protecting wilderness, I do not necessarily agree with going with a democracy or what's popular - what's popular is not necessarily what is right and there is too much at stake.

If you decided to live on the moon you would have to accept there would be hardships that you might not encounter than if you chose to live in civilization.

The same goes for living in the Adirondacks - though for obviously different reasons.

People inside the park need to accept that they may have less control over what goes on than if they lived in a ordinary place BECAUSE of where they live.
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Old 10-25-2005, 05:10 PM   #71
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There are species of animals that no longer exist. They became extinct because of humans, either hunted or else their habitats were destroyed.

The whole ecosystem of the Mississippi Delta is destroyed and the havoc from the hurricane is because much of the natural protection has been destroyed because of both, development and "improvement" and "flood prevention" in the area and along the Mississippi River. So God hath wrought destruction on what man has messed with.

We have acid rain because factories are spewing pollutants in the air and continue to so so citing the "jobs" and "livelihoods" that are dependent upon it. In the mean time our waterways are becoming too polluted to sustain life for fish and fowl. The shortage of that causes the loss of their natural predators.

We have global warming as a result of our industrial processes and incidentally abetted by the clear cutting of trees.

We are buying bottled water because much of our drinking water is unsafe.

I and others have to stay indoors at certain times because the air quality puts us at risk.

All of this as a result of human activity, mostly to sustain livelihood.

So, I ask again........

WHY should humans be allowed to continue to make the decisions.

The proof of the matter is that no matter where you look, the evidence is clear that humanity is incapable and often unwilling to do the right thing.
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Old 10-25-2005, 05:23 PM   #72
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WOW!

I have nothing else to say.
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Old 10-25-2005, 06:15 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk
There are species of animals that no longer exist. They became extinct because of humans, either hunted or else their habitats were destroyed.

The whole ecosystem of the Mississippi Delta is destroyed and the havoc from the hurricane is because much of the natural protection has been destroyed because of both, development and "improvement" and "flood prevention" in the area and along the Mississippi River. So God hath wrought destruction on what man has messed with.

We have acid rain because factories are spewing pollutants in the air and continue to so so citing the "jobs" and "livelihoods" that are dependent upon it. In the mean time our waterways are becoming too polluted to sustain life for fish and fowl. The shortage of that causes the loss of their natural predators.

We have global warming as a result of our industrial processes and incidentally abetted by the clear cutting of trees.

We are buying bottled water because much of our drinking water is unsafe.

I and others have to stay indoors at certain times because the air quality puts us at risk.

All of this as a result of human activity, mostly to sustain livelihood.

So, I ask again........

WHY should humans be allowed to continue to make the decisions.

The proof of the matter is that no matter where you look, the evidence is clear that humanity is incapable and often unwilling to do the right thing.
So let me get this straight. We should do nothing and wait for natural disaster? I have faith that humanity as a whole (the sum of the parts, not just the parts) can make the right decisions. Left to ourselves as individuals we will usually stray, but as a whole I think we can follow the path. I would also argue that the laundry list above from Redhawk is a result of human activity but mostly to sustain a lifestyle and not a livelihood.
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Old 10-25-2005, 07:20 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik
So let me get this straight. We should do nothing and wait for natural disaster? I have faith that humanity as a whole (the sum of the parts, not just the parts) can make the right decisions. Left to ourselves as individuals we will usually stray, but as a whole I think we can follow the path. I would also argue that the laundry list above from Redhawk is a result of human activity but mostly to sustain a lifestyle and not a livelihood.
From my perspective, wouldn't it be a noble act to restore into at least one area in the entire eastern US the native wildlife that was originally there 300-400 years ago? Whatever it was that caused their removal as a result of human activity- fear, misconceptions, greed, sustaining a livelihood or lifestyle.........all of that is in the past. We cannot change the past, but now we CAN affect the present and at least do the right thing now and set an example for the rest of the world to follow in restoring a more balanced ecosystem.
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Old 10-25-2005, 08:02 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twochordcool

If the state could afford it I wish they could just forcefully buy the land at fair market value.
So it would be just for the state to force me to sell my home and land to them? Sorry, guys, (Gary, Kevin, Zac), but it is tough to ignore a load of garbage like that. I won't fire back as I'd like out of respect for the forum. I'll bite my tongue...don't want to cause you guys another hassle.

Quote:
You're probably there because your father and grandfather logged trees to survive there.
It just keeps getting better. Sheesh...

I will change my stance a tad and agree with Poco that the entire state should have a say for the in regard to STATE lands. I ignored this with my previous post, but Poco is right on. But as for private lands in the park, I think I should have more of a say as to what goes in my backyard. It is totally awful how species were wiped out...no one is disgusted by it more than I am. However, if the vote is yay or nay in my BACKYARD, I think my vote should mean a tad more than someone who doesn't OWN my backyard. I just don't see how anyone can discredit that. Rik, I agree with most everything you have said here. I'm glad we're on the same page.
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Old 10-25-2005, 09:26 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik
So let me get this straight. We should do nothing and wait for natural disaster?
That's my point exactly...... Don't you understand what I said?

Lets see if I can make this clear.......

The majority of the damage done by Katrina would not have occurred if man had not done things that prevented the silt from continuing to build up in the Mississippi Delta, and if much of the salt marsh flora had not been destroyed because of development.

In other words, Man's actions made Katrina a far bigger disaster then nature.

So yes, we should just leave things alone and trust to nature. Nature seemed to do fine for the Eons before the dawn of man, and the earth has gone downhill since.....
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Old 10-26-2005, 08:44 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk
That's my point exactly...... Don't you understand what I said?

Lets see if I can make this clear.......

The majority of the damage done by Katrina would not have occurred if man had not done things that prevented the silt from continuing to build up in the Mississippi Delta, and if much of the salt marsh flora had not been destroyed because of development.

In other words, Man's actions made Katrina a far bigger disaster then nature.

So yes, we should just leave things alone and trust to nature. Nature seemed to do fine for the Eons before the dawn of man, and the earth has gone downhill since.....
As far as reintroduction of wolves is concerned I agree we should do nothing and let nature run her course. I do believe however that humans are not going anywhere soon and therefore we need to learn to make better decisions rather than no decisions whatsoever. Do you choose to eat? Heat your home? Take medicine? These are all decisions each of us makes. To make no decisions would be to wait for death. I don't see many will to make, again, this decision. (love this icon, especially the flies!)
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Old 10-26-2005, 09:14 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik
As far as reintroduction of wolves is concerned I agree we should do nothing and let nature run her course. I do believe however that humans are not going anywhere soon and therefore we need to learn to make better decisions rather than no decisions whatsoever. Do you choose to eat? Heat your home? Take medicine? These are all decisions each of us makes. To make no decisions would be to wait for death. I don't see many will to make, again, this decision. (love this icon, especially the flies!)
Ah, the crux of the problem.

How much do we need to eat? if we throw any away, we've taken too much.
How warm do we need to be? I go into houses where people have their heat in the 80's and 90's. Not only does that waste energy its not really healthy,
Medicine? We have a medicine for just about everything, and a lot of the medicines we have are to fix the effects of other medicines we've taken.

The crux of the problem is that most decisions lead to excess not survival or even just comfortable.

Most people will make the decision to drive to the convenience store that is two blocks away rather then walk to it. Not only burning gasoline, but also contributing to the trend towards obesity because of lack of exercise. Usually at the convenience store they purchase candy, snacks, tobacco, soda (choose which you want) which are all unhealthy.

Choices in heating? What percentage of the people choose solar, which is much less expensive in the long term, (You can usually recover your cost in five years), does not pollute and consumes no fossil fuel? Less then .001 percent of the population, and it is affordable for most homeowners.

Look at the "choices" people made concerning automobiles. How many Suvs? and for what reason? To four wheel in the woods? Seen any out there other then at the trailheads? How about to get about in the snow better? How many Suvs in Florida, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, the Gulf Coast, California? What was the rationale behind that choice?

A few years back the government finally "decided" to make auto manufacturers make cars fuel efficient. Then they promptly set up a mechanism by which the automakers could cheat. We went from cars that were giving us anywhere from 30- 52 (Honda CRX) mpg in the eighties to "fuel efficient hybrids" that gives us 40+ mpg now, if we want to pay the extra $$$$ that they cost.

Like I said. Look at the record, it doesn't lie and you can't really make a case that shows instances of good choices.

No, I don't have faith in people making the right choices.

The criteria that most people use for "the right choice" is what's best for them, not whats best overall!
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Old 10-26-2005, 01:08 PM   #79
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Quote:
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No, I don't have faith in people making the right choices.

The criteria that most people use for "the right choice" is what's best for them, not whats best overall!
Interesting points being made here...... This seems to point out a real dilemna......as Pogo or someone once said "We have met the enemy, and HE is US".

If the people in a democracy or a republic cannot make the "right" choices, and centralized power in gov't dictatorships, i.e. Soviet and Eastern European cannot either (witness the ecological disasters left behind in those areas). then where does that leave us?

Come on down, you Eastern wolves from Canada- and begin the colonization!
That is the best scenario in my book.
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Old 10-26-2005, 01:51 PM   #80
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The only problem is....

Quote:
Originally Posted by poconoron
Come on down, you Eastern wolves from Canada- and begin the colonization!
.
they will need passports to cross the border!
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