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Old 06-01-2018, 02:53 PM   #201
JohnnyVirgil
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Originally Posted by Nehasane View Post
1 accessible lean-to + up to 5 campsites are planned for BP.
That's not so bad.
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Old 06-01-2018, 03:07 PM   #202
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1 accessible lean-to + up to 5 campsites are planned for BP.

I would need at least 2 days to paddle the perimeter of Lila + Shingle Shanty + Beaver River. I can do the perimeter of Boreas + paddle up the inlet in half a day - Lila has way more paddling opportunities including carries to other waterbodies. 0.3 mile carry to Lila is about as much effort as 1 mile on a dirt road to Boreas. The only thing Boreas has over Lila is the High Peaks view. Lila has many nice campsites, Boreas will have lousy campsites like Essex Chain & Henderson Lake so after the 1st couple of years there will be fewer campers. Gulf Brook Rd will have some car-camping sites, that's why some folks are comparing it with Cedar River Flow/Moose River Plains.
Again, nitpicking and exaggerations.

Talking about Lila itself, not adjacent water bodies, you can paddle all of that in about 1 day. The size of Lake Lila is comparable to what you get at Boreas. The time it will take to access fishing spots or land for a day hike will be about the same between the two.

The portage to Lila (is it .3 miles?) is easy. I see paddlers taking carts in or carrying their stuff all the time. How long will the portage to Boreas be? They're not letting people drive right up to the water are they?


"Boreas will have lousy campsites." How the heck do you know that? Has the DEC even announced where, if any, water-side campsites will be set up?

Road-side camping...along the road (hence why it's called road-side), not on the water.

I don't know why so many on here are determined to see the glass as half empty on this issue, especially considering that the water hasn't even been poured yet. You would think that based on the way some people complain on this forum that the ADK's is on the verge of becoming a hazardous waste zone...

Edit: And by the way, if you think the campsites at Essex Chain of Lakes are "lousy," that suits me just fine. Please continue thinking that and spreading that gouge so that I can continue to enjoy them by myself.
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Old 06-01-2018, 03:17 PM   #203
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Yeah, you're probably right. I hope you are. The size though -- from what I can see, "Boreas Ponds, the namesake of the tract, form a 320-acre body of water" whereas Lake Lila is 1446 acres. That's a considerable difference.
Where are you getting that info from?

I know that Lila is bigger, but looking at both of them on scaled maps, they don't seem all that different. Lake Lila itself is easily a day-paddle trip, as is Boreas.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:49 PM   #204
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Where are you getting that info from?

I know that Lila is bigger, but looking at both of them on scaled maps, they don't seem all that different. Lake Lila itself is easily a day-paddle trip, as is Boreas.
Second paragraph here:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/107504.html

And here: https://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/76408.html


Could it be a typo? I've been to both in the last year or two and Lila just seemed way bigger to me. I haven't checked them on a topo map, but will.
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Old 06-01-2018, 07:14 PM   #205
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Talking about Lila itself, not adjacent water bodies, you can paddle all of that in about 1 day. The size of Lake Lila is comparable to what you get at Boreas. The time it will take to access fishing spots or land for a day hike will be about the same between the two.

The portage to Lila (is it .3 miles?) is easy. I see paddlers taking carts in or carrying their stuff all the time. How long will the portage to Boreas be? They're not letting people drive right up to the water are they?


"Boreas will have lousy campsites." How the heck do you know that? Has the DEC even announced where, if any, water-side campsites will be set up?

As others have noted, Lila is over 4 times the size of BP.

Judging about your questions it sounds like you have not actually read the draft UMP.

On my 2nd visit to BP I scoured the shoreline for a nice campsite but pretty much all of it is sprucey, I had difficulty finding a nice lunch spot let alone a nice campsite. It was a tough & scratchy bushwhack just to go pee 150' away from the water! I did, however, camp there that night. Please tell us about your experiences there.

Yes the DEC has announced approximate campsite locations - the map is on page 115.
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Old 06-01-2018, 07:46 PM   #206
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"Boreas will have lousy campsites like Essex Chain & Henderson Lake "
I would tend to agree based on the new campsites and relocated leanto sites I have seen
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Old 06-01-2018, 07:53 PM   #207
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As others have noted, Lila is over 4 times the size of BP.

Judging about your questions it sounds like you have not actually read the draft UMP.

On my 2nd visit to BP I scoured the shoreline for a nice campsite but pretty much all of it is sprucey, I had difficulty finding a nice lunch spot let alone a nice campsite. It was a tough & scratchy bushwhack just to go pee 150' away from the water! I did, however, camp there that night. Please tell us about your experiences there.

Yes the DEC has announced approximate campsite locations - the map is on page 115.
I camped 2 nights on Boreas in 2016. Carted boats in from main road. Was tough to find a place to camp, took at least an hour of scouring before we found a decent spot. Not much for easy shore access, and woods are choked with deadfall. We did carve out a great spot far enough back, then pushed everything back in when we left. You would not know we had been there unless you knew how to look.

Best lunch spot was on a rock in the nw arm. Nice place to swim but only from rock. Really no shoreline access anywhere but the dam and the site of the former lodge dock.

Will be interesting where they elect to put sites. The nights were incredible concert of loon calls, and the views are exceptional. Fun place to explore and I look forward to getting back.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:33 PM   #208
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Not to kick a dead horse...

This article https://www.researchgate.net/publica...04429/download would strongly suggest that the trout in Boreas are likely a heritage strain of wild fish despite past stocking efforts. So the decision not to protect this rare resource by putting adequate distance between the ponds and motorized access again seems ill conceived and uninformed.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:44 PM   #209
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If it is such a rare resource, why not just close these artificial waterbodies to all fishing? And, if no heritage strains are generally recognized in stocked waters, what happened here that the stockies didn't interfere with the heritage strain? It would seem to me that 3 miles of hiking and dragging a canoe is a pretty good distance, except for those few people who will get day permits. (Sorry, Researchgate has never worked on my computer, so I can't read the study that was commissioned by TNC, so may be somewhat suspect in terms of bias.)
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:54 PM   #210
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If it is such a rare resource, why not just close these artificial waterbodies to all fishing? And, if no heritage strains are generally recognized in stocked waters, what happened here that the stockies didn't interfere with the heritage strain? It would seem to me that 3 miles of hiking and dragging a canoe is a pretty good distance, except for those few people who will get day permits. (Sorry, Researchgate has never worked on my computer, so I can't read the study that was commissioned by TNC, so may be somewhat suspect in terms of bias.)
Biased? Its kind of hard to hold your thumb on the scale of a DNA test, outside of total fabrication. Is that what you're implying, that this report you didn't read was fabricated for some unknown but clearly nefarious reason by TNC who've already long sold off the land?

And why close it down? Nowhere does it say that the total population of trout in Boreas is in danger of overfishing. It is in danger of fish pollution from the same type of knucklehead as the little tupper bass stocker getting upset about the pond getting shutdown to fishing as you suggested or some other beef with the 'gubmint'. Distance from driving greatly minimizes this threat but of course where there's a will there's a way.

Why didn't stockers dilute the genetics? Can't say for sure but I do know that DEC often stocks different strains in reclaimed and acid recovered ponds to determine which will adapt best. Usually there is a clear winner and that strain will out-compete the other so maybe that scenario happened here. It makes sense that the native strain would win out.

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Old 09-12-2018, 04:14 PM   #211
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As I clearly stated, I am unable to download the report. Thank you for your Herculean effort to facilitate the actual transfer of the information in question, rather than your possibly biased summary. When an agency or an organization contracts researchers to evaluate its projects, it is often subject to suspicion of bias. I refer you to many reports published by the tobacco and mining industries.

If someone around there is unhappy with the regulations, unfortunately even three miles is unlikely to prevent them from doing something. Facilitating access to resources and educating people in wise use of them would go a loo further and not give people the sense that things are being managed by elitists for elitists.
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:18 PM   #212
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I know of a pond that used to be a one mile hike that is now double that and one that was 100 yards, and it is now about 4 miles. There have been no measurable changes to the fishery in either one that have been reported anywhere, other than the 4 miler now has trout in it do to decline of acidity, and it didn't for 30+ years when the road was still open. Since my interest is in fishing rather than walking, I have been deprived of my recreation in favor of making something more difficult for me and more acceptable to those who don't mind all that additional walking. This doesn't bother me at all when they are natural ponds, and construction would be required to get me to the lake, but this is a man made pond with a road already constructed and which has been in use for years by the elites of the TNC all the way to the pond s. At 67, three miles with a canoe in tow is an endeavor, and shaves about three to four hours off a potential fishing day trip. But I can likely talk to my doctor about the blue hang tag, and then I'll just have to drive further to get the day use ticket.
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:09 PM   #213
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But I can likely talk to my doctor about the blue hang tag, and then I'll just have to drive further to get the day use ticket.
I walked the miles to get to the ponds last week. Shortly after leaving the outlet dam, a vehicle with two people having VT plates drove up (I was hoping for DEC vehicle and the possibility to hitch hike back to the gate). I asked how did you manage to get here. And the answer was "I have a heart condition" implying a letter from a Doctor. Reason I mention it is I don't remember seeing a Blue Tag.

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Old 09-12-2018, 11:01 PM   #214
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Did you note the car's tag?

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Old 09-13-2018, 07:10 PM   #215
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...Facilitating access to resources and educating people in wise use of them would go a loo further and not give people the sense that things are being managed by elitists for elitists.
Lucky, I’m not 100% sure I understand your point here, but I respectfully disagree that a 3.5 mile walk for the general public would be considered an “elite” management plan...?
And do you have any examples of where “education in wise use” is working elsewhere, in regards to easy access?
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:24 PM   #216
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Did you note the car's tag?
No, sorry I didn't. They got a key to get past the gate. It was locked when I returned there?

Is there a system in place for special access that's been published and available to the general public? That question might be rhetorical as I'm surely capable of discovering it on my own. Maybe start with a call to the ranger assigned to the area.

By the way. I was scoping out for possibly skiing in this winter. That climb at the start is pretty long and steep. I might snowshoe. But it will be nice on the outbound. I'll have to wait for enough base over the new rock spread across the road. The road walk is boring and generally downhill after the gate and beyond it I see a lot of poleing will be required. To enjoy this place I will need to get a canoe before I go back; or, wait till February and ski in.

Don

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Old 09-13-2018, 07:43 PM   #217
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Lucky, I’m not 100% sure I understand your point here, but I respectfully disagree that a 3.5 mile walk for the general public would be considered an “elite” management plan...?
And do you have any examples of where “education in wise use” is working elsewhere, in regards to easy access?
I’d love to see some examples as well. Education doesn’t work for driving (speed, text, phone, general dickishness), barely worked for smoking - took forever to make headway. Seems to have started working for driving while intoxicated.

I can’t imagine it working for back country ‘ethics’.
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:59 PM   #218
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Lucky, I’m not 100% sure I understand your point here, but I respectfully disagree that a 3.5 mile walk for the general public would be considered an “elite” management plan...?
And do you have any examples of where “education in wise use” is working elsewhere, in regards to easy access?
In this day and age when every player on the last-placed team gets a trophy walking 3.5 miles might be considered for elites only. In fairness, for day visitors that makes 7 miles on top of whatever it is they came to do. (On my 3 day-trips in I road a bike).

As for public education: goes nowhere, does nothing. Witness all the people post-holing the heck out of the trails in the High Peaks in spite of prominently displayed signage regarding the mandatory wearing of snowshoes at most trail heads.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:14 PM   #219
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In this day and age when every player on the last-placed team gets a trophy walking 3.5 miles might be considered for elites only. In fairness, for day visitors that makes 7 miles on top of whatever it is they came to do. (On my 3 day-trips in I road a bike).

As for public education: goes nowhere, does nothing. Witness all the people post-holing the heck out of the trails in the High Peaks in spite of prominently displayed signage regarding the mandatory wearing of snowshoes at most trail heads.
Rode?

I wouldn't say education does NOTHING. Without it, it would probably be significantly worse as it does work on some. Then there are those who don't notice it and break the rules out of ignorance and those who do read it or know it and break the rules out of willful disobedience. The latter two are the ones to focus on, and perhaps some of the clueless can be converts, but it's the ones who are willfully disobedient that you will never change no matter how much you educate. Punishment sometimes works, but even that is not 100% effective on those types. It's human nature, so I suggest deal with it or go to Mars.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:14 PM   #220
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In this day and age when every player on the last-placed team gets a trophy walking 3.5 miles might be considered for elites only. In fairness, for day visitors that makes 7 miles on top of whatever it is they came to do.
Understood, an extra 2 hour walk (or an extra 30 minute bike ride) is considered “elite”... a great example for our elders to teach today’s children in order reach their goals in life. Why make someone work to achieve something that they can have without any significant effort?

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