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  • #76
    The Old Forge Fire Dept and the Town of Webb both use prisoners from Oneida Correctional. They have also been used at the historical asoc.

    Originally posted by Deb dePeyster View Post
    Are the prison systems involved in maintenance in the Adirondacks?

    Comment


    • #77
      Several years ago, I encountered a crew from Camp Gabriels doing maintenance work at a trailhead along Keese Mills Road near Paul Smiths. That minimum security prison is closed now. Are there other minimum security facilities in the Adirondacks?

      Comment


      • #78
        Its nice to see tax dollars at work. More correctional programs such as the ones mentioned would be a great help to the state . it would be nice to see some numbers from the state on the man hours from correctional labor and areas its applied to. why are the numbers lost in the system because the hours provided by the correctional labor reduce needed pay hours for state employes.Then having a reducing effect on some budjets. Thats why we dont hear as much and why we as citizens have to dust off our memories realize the possibilities. we can get it done by using the force of people we allready have at our disposal. Some correctional facilities are private the state foots the bill and the facility demands payment for the work services they provide again we pall pay twice. Is that a surprise

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by danceswithflies View Post
          Several years ago, I encountered a crew from Camp Gabriels doing maintenance work at a trailhead along Keese Mills Road near Paul Smiths. That minimum security prison is closed now. Are there other minimum security facilities in the Adirondacks?
          I know that in the town of Moriah east of North Hudson there's a "shock troops" facility for younger guys. They have done alot of trail work and built a leanto in the Hammond Pond wild forest. I'm not sure if they still take these guys out to do that kind of stuff anymore, but they were fairly active with that kind of work in the late 80's & 90's.

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          • #80
            I think the best solution all around is to fire everyone in middle management, round up half as many wino's to replace them and cut the salaries in half.

            That will not only save money, it will probably run much more efficiently as well.

            Come to think of it, we should do that with the elected officials as well.
            Last edited by redhawk; 12-02-2010, 02:33 PM.
            "If future generations are to remember us with gratitude rather than contempt, we must leave them more than the miracles of technology. We must leave them a glimpse of the world as it was in the beginning, not just after we got through with it." Lyndon B. Johnson

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            • #81
              Originally posted by paddlewheel View Post
              I know that in the town of Moriah east of North Hudson there's a "shock troops" facility for younger guys. They have done alot of trail work and built a leanto in the Hammond Pond wild forest. I'm not sure if they still take these guys out to do that kind of stuff anymore, but they were fairly active with that kind of work in the late 80's & 90's.
              I do believe that is slated to close if it hasn't already. Go figure close something that works.

              Hawk Finally something we agree on Must be a holiday!

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              • #82
                I agree 100%
                clean house

                Comment


                • #83
                  Digital Journal reports that

                  On September 5, New York State celebrated their 20 years of success. The program began on September 10, 1987, has been said to be the best program in the United States by a national research group.

                  Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/articl...#ixzz17Ha6KAWx

                  and also

                  Less than 8 percent of all graduates return to prison within a year, which is a decent recidivism rate. After inmates are released, they are required to participate in a 6-month "AfterShock supervision program run by the Division of Parole."

                  Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/articl...#ixzz17HaWcmqz

                  So lets close more prisons and open more Shock Camps. Noval idea open more places that actually work.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    moose river plains

                    i recently was sent a link to this letter. Thought it was very interesting

                    PROPERTY RIGHTS FOUNDATION OF AMERICA, INC.
                    P. O. Box 75
                    Stony Creek, NY 12878
                    (518) 696-5748
                    lagrasse@prfamerica.org
                    slot anti rungkad menjadi trend dengan server thailand terbaru dewarans memberikan sensasional maxwin x500 dalam system kemenangan 2024 terbukti paling gacor disini.


                    September 16, 2010

                    To:

                    Richard Weber
                    Adirondack Park Agency
                    P. O. Box 99
                    Ray Brook, NY 12977
                    E-mailed to: apa_slmp@gw.dec.state.ny.us

                    Josh Clague, DEC
                    625 Broadway, 5th floor
                    Albany, NY 12233
                    E-mailed to: lfadk@tgw.dec.state.ny.us

                    Re: Moose River Plains - Comment on DEC-APA Revisions to State Land Master Plan & UMP

                    Dear Mr. Weber and Mr. Clague:

                    This letter is to clarify and add to my official oral comments at the Indian Lake Central School on August 16, 2010 on the DEC/APA proposed revisions to the State Land Master Plan (SLMP) and the Unit Management Plan (UMP) for the Moose River Plains Wild Forest.

                    I request that you take my comments into account and withdraw the proposed plans, and also include this letter in the complete formal record of the comments on these proposed revisions to the plans.

                    New York State Conservation law and the agreement with the Gould Paper company state that the Gould property was acquired as a gift for the purposes of fish and wildlife management and that the area was to be known as the Moose River Recreation Area, to be used as a recreational area for hunters, fisherman and sportsman, and that the Moose River tract shall not become part of the Forest Preserve.
                    When the lands were conveyed according to that agreement with the Gould company, they were purchased with restricted New York State Recreation funds. Both the agreement and the Recreation funding were designated to creating roads, access, and campsites, and maintaining these for the use of sportsmen and women and others. The closing of roads, access, and campsites contemplated in the revisions to the SLMP and UMP would violate the terms of the agreement and the legislative purpose of the Recreation funds.
                    Therefore, the tract should be maintained for these recreational uses and none of the campsites, bridge(s) or other stream crossings or roads closed.
                    Neither the Otter Brook Road nor Indian Lake Road should be closed. These roads should not be converted to hiking or horse trails.
                    Both Otter Brook Road and Indian Lake Road should be maintained as motor vehicle roads.
                    The plan to reduce the number of campsites from a stated number of 170 to 83, with a future possible plan for 150, should be rejected.
                    Instead, all of the current campsites should be maintained, sanitation and staffing improved, and additional campsites added.
                    At a minimum, the original number of over 200 campsites that were established in the Moose River Plains should be restored.
                    The plan to separate the parking of vehicles from the actual campsites should be rejected.
                    In is essential that campsites be immediately adjacent to the area where the vehicle used by the particular camping group is parked, for accessibility and security.
                    The plan to close 49 miles of snowmobile trails and create 14 new miles should be rejected, even if the new trail mileage is a connector trail.
                    No snowmobile trails should be closed. The connector trail should be added also.
                    Float plane access should be maximized.
                    The plan to convert 15,062 acres of the Moose River Plains Wild Forest to Wilderness violates the terms of the Gould purchase and funding and other law.
                    The plan to make this huge conversion of land to Wilderness is the most mean-spirited feature of the shell game that this entire voluminous proposal is about. Measly so-called benefits are proposed, such as the string-like strip one-tenth of a mile wide on each side of Cedar River Road (totaling only 2,925 acres) to be converted to a new Intensive Use, are highlighted, while a massive amount of use by families, senior citizens, and sportsmen and women is sought to be wiped out.
                    In addition, there is the campsite shell game, the snowmobile trail shell game, and so on.
                    It is ironic that the agencies are comfortable to propose revision to the State Land Master Plan to effectuate these nasty pretexts at compromise, but in other contexts of the consideration of the Moose River Plains and other UMPs, the State Land Master Plan, which the agencies themselves created, is sacrosanct.
                    The proposed plans amount to a betrayal of the public trust. Sly games and ruses are the heart of the proposed plans.
                    None of the land within the Moose River Plains Wild Forest should be converted to Wilderness.
                    The tract does not fall under any UMP or SLMP, as it is a separate entity and was written into law as such.
                    The disposition of the gravel roads was settled in New York State Court and the State has no power to close any of them.
                    The proposed revisions to the SLMP and UMP should be reissued to abide with the terms of the Gould agreement and the provisions of New York State statute under which the purchase was funded.
                    Alternates for any changes that are proposed should favor public access and use.
                    The plans should be revised to improve access, to restore campsites and roads to increase public use, and a declaration of joint APA-DEC policy made to reject any additional land acquisition so that state funds are concentrated on staffing, desperately needed sanitation and maintenance, and improvements to better serve the public who would like to enjoy the State-owned forest land in the beautiful Adirondacks.
                    The environmental impact analysis is incomplete and cursory, failing to meet the requirements of SEQRA.
                    The proposed revisions to the plans are discriminatory, favoring the use of the State-owned land in the Adirondacks for one group to the omission of other groups who are citizens and taxpayers, and entitled to the use of the State-owned land as much as the favored group.
                    The proposed revisions to the plans are discriminatory by favoring the cultural history related to one select group to the diminishment of and omission of the traditions of the people who generally are the established users of the Moose River Plains Recreation Area and the historic residents within the Adirondack Blue Line.
                    The proposed revisions to the plans discriminate against senior citizens.
                    The proposed revisions to the plans are in violation of State law because they purport to rely on compliance with an outdated State Land Master Plan, which is, in itself, in violation of State statute.
                    The proposed revisions to the plans comprise the misuse of taxpayer funds.
                    In addition, I demand a specific reply to every comment in my August 16, 2010 statement and this letter.

                    Thank you.

                    Yours truly,

                    Carol W. LaGrasse
                    President, Property Rights Foundation of America, Inc.
                    And, as an individual,
                    A citizen of the State of New York and the United States of America,
                    A senior citizen,
                    A New York State taxpayer,
                    And a resident of the Town of Stony Creek within the Adirondack

                    the letter came to me from a friend inside the blue line who is fighting the state on a family camp issue . None of the states paperwork over the years has been proper in legal sense. the lawyer representing the camp has been played with by the state for years . Sending notice to the state not hearing from the state for years at a time and then the state responding with a demand for response to their letters in 30 days what a joke . For years they wanted to negotiate with the state as to what their options are. The state has not made this easy. its really sad
                    Last edited by Neil; 02-17-2011, 06:49 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Actually it's neither interesting or surprising considering the source. This is the same woman who advocates for all state land to become an ATV playground. BTW, if she can produce those Gould deed documents she should cough em up as I hear they don't exist or at least nobody knows where to find them.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        There are clauses in the "Forever Wild" amendment that allow organizations to donate land to NYS to be used for purposes other than Forest Preserve Lands. According to The Forest Preserve of New York State: A Handbook for Conservations (which was published by the ADK back in 1985, I think it's out of print now but it's a must have book for anyone interested in the management of public land in the Adirondacks), NYS can accept gifts of land for the following uses other than addition to the Forest Preserve: Park or reservation purposes, restoration and wildlife management, fish and wildlife management purposes, and silvicultural research and experimentation in the science of forestry.

                        There are actually quite a few parcels of state land in the Adirondacks that isn't Forest Preserve, mostly in small bits here and there. The Debar Mountain Game Management Area was one such parcel, where the unsuccessful attempt to reintroduce Elk into the Adirondacks was made. There is an experimental silvicultural forest at Pack Forest where timber harvesting is permitted on state lands.

                        This clause was used, albeit in a somewhat tricky manner, to keep the roads in the Moose River Plains open when the state acquired the land from the Gould Paper Company. The state purchased the land itself, but the Paper Company donated the rights of way on which the road was situated for the purposes of "Fish and Game Management." As such, the roads through the MRP area are not on Forest Preserve Lands, and the state was able to keep them open.

                        All this is common knowledge, and she doesn't need to produce any documents to prove it.

                        However, she's wrong on several counts. The donation involved only the the roads, not the land itself, so arguing that converting some of the land to Wilderness violates the terms of the purchase would be incorrect, as any terms of the purchase involving accessibility would only be applicable to the roads themselves.

                        Second, I don't know of any law that requires land donated to NYS for reasons other than addition to the Forest Preserve to be used for those purposes in perpetuity. Again, with the example of the Debar Game Management Area- after the Elk reintroduction failed, the state took out all the buildings and abandoned use of the property as a game headquarters. It is pretty much managed as Forest Preserve Lands, with the lands quickly reverting back to a "wild" state.

                        If anything, citing the original terms of the gift will weaken her argument. The use of the gifts clause of the Forever Wild amendment was incredibly controversial in this case back when the terms of the Gould lands purchase were made public. Many environmental groups argued that the State was using the clause in a manner inconsistent with the intent of those who enacted it. It could quite easily be argued that public motor vehicle use is not a necessary component of "Fish and Game Management," which is what the roads are to be used for as specified by the terms of the gift.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          are you saying the state has made these documents disappear. Sounds like you don't like her much . I take it your not a fan of the atv's. well I'm not a fan of the state taking our taxes and then closing and limiting access to land we own as state citizens . then spending it on other proposed purchases when they cant maintain the land they already have all the time raising the property taxes we pay as land owners. I not for unlimited access for atvs but limited access such as handicap permit and SAR when needed. I'm also not for mt bikes on foot trails we have had a couple run ins with punks on bikes trying to jump off of boulders onto the trails yelling coming thru and expecting you to make way quickly just so they don't have to slow. No respect for foot traffic which always has the right of way.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by 40dog View Post
                            are you saying the state has made these documents disappear. Sounds like you don't like her much . I take it your not a fan of the atv's. well I'm not a fan of the state taking our taxes and then closing and limiting access to land we own as state citizens . then spending it on other proposed purchases when they cant maintain the land they already have all the time raising the property taxes we pay as land owners. I not for unlimited access for atvs but limited access such as handicap permit and SAR when needed. I'm also not for mt bikes on foot trails we have had a couple run ins with punks on bikes trying to jump off of boulders onto the trails yelling coming thru and expecting you to make way quickly just so they don't have to slow. No respect for foot traffic which always has the right of way.
                            Honestly, given the holes in her argument (big enough to fly a jumbo jet through), the accusatory tact and tone of the letter, the sense of entitlement that she projects, the complete lack of a suggestion as to how resources can be protected in conjunction with her proposed actions, and her complete lack of a coherent paragraph structure in an "official" letter from an organization whose intent is to publicly present a solution to a perceived problem, would make me want to stay pretty well clear of her if I was arguing for the roads in the MRP to remain open.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Maybe aliens stole the documents, I made no insinuation as to why the documents are missing only that nobody seems to be able to find them.

                              Carol LaGasse is a far right radical with an agenda way outside the mainstream. So no I'm not a fan, as I'm not a fan of radicals of either end of the political spectrum.

                              Your connection between land classification in the MRP and your own property taxes is illogical and incorrect.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                1. sounds like she is a long time resident within the blue line.

                                2. tired of the states flip flopping on their responsibility to tax paying residents

                                3 publicly addressing the state employees who are at the front line of this

                                4. speaking in a demanding tone much like any legal or lawyer supported document which should always call / demand action

                                5. Speaking of a understanding / interpretation of this lands use from well before many of us were even born .

                                6. exercising her amendment rights

                                7. The best of all stirring up conflict and issue between state and private land ownership and designation of use and the stealing of access and accessibility of public land from we the user.

                                Re classification changes what needs to be spent on maintenance and up keep which directly is supported by our taxes in ny . By reducing costs on public land maintenance and repair the state gets out of solving the real problem their poor and insulting spending practices . and the rape of the state economy and sportsman's fund. Without a radical or two this country would not exist.

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