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Old 08-23-2010, 09:21 PM   #41
adkeditor
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Originally Posted by DuctTape View Post
Picking blueberries is legal as long as you personally eat them.
Touche.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:20 PM   #42
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now..now boys....play nice...the simple fact of the matter here is walk softly...
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To that I would add, "pick our words carefully"
Points taken.... Paddlewheel, I never would've thunk...

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Huh??? In no way have I condoned or promoted "acts of destruction". What the heck...where did you get that? I just think we should try to get along, minimize our impact, and pick our battles.
Alright, "acts of destruction" perhaps is a bit much to describe what you'd call "cleaning moss"... but one person's "cleaning moss" is another person's "act of destruction"

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... I'm just trying to put the matter in perspective. The ecological damage is next to nil. It might violate the regulation against damaging plants...
I agree, the ecological impact is next to nil, just like spray painting "PHIL BROWN WUZ HERE" on a boulder, or an individual cutting a trail to his favorite spot, or a hunter appropriating a little patch of forest for a food plot. Any one of those things is insignificant, but if we all made little "improvements" to the landscape we share the collective effect would be devastating.

If "cleaning moss" was mentioned by someone here, I probably wouldn't have noticed, and I certainly wouldn't have given the poster a hard time about it. Also, I could care less if you spend all of your free time stripping moss off of boulders, cutting skiing glades and trespassing all over the Adirondacks.

The problems arise when you publicize questionable practices in the Adirondack Explorer. Perhaps I hold your paper in higher regard than I should, but my impression is that it is popular, well respected, and influential, particularly among the demographic that likes to think of themselves as good stewards and responsible recreationalists. The fact that I read about "cleaning moss" in the Adirondack Explorer suggests that it is an accepted and widely used practice, and implies to your readers that altering the landscape to make your recreational pursuits a little easier is okay. Your 'guilty pleasures' article about skiing glades acknowledges that their maintenance involves some questionable practices, but made an effort to rationalize them. The series of navigation rights articles are similarly questionable in that if the public follows your lead it could result in major problems.

Some things are just better not publicized. Whether you like it or not, I think the Adirondack Explorer influences the attitudes of a lot of people. As more and more people use the Forest Preserve it is imperative that we all do our best to minimize our impact, and not cause any unnecessary damage to the land we all share. A strong ethic of respect for the land and each other is more important than ever. The Adirondack Explorer should do its best to strengthen that ethic, not erode it by publicizing exceptions.
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Old 08-24-2010, 08:55 AM   #43
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We can't enter the woods w/o leaving a mark. If I choose to use the "official" trails, my impact joins thousands of others and creates a long-lasting intrusion into the woods.
But as an avid bushwhacker, my solo trips into the woods initiate that intrusion. If I enjoy the trip and come back, now its begun to be a "herd path". Which is worse?
I say the question is prejudiced: it assumes human intrusion is bad. Screw that.
In the 70s, a rabidly extreme and vocal contingent fought to tear down any sign of humanity in the Adk wilderness. Forty years later, we've recognized the value of things like fire towers and are spending money to preserve them. Duh, people!
I'm one of those selfish persons who've scraped lichen off rock in order to climb it. After less than 2 decades, most of those same rocks are covered again. Centuries my butt, that is pure propoganda. Those few routes that deserve return visits have survived - or will survive - because others will come aclimbing them. I've not reduced the value of wilderness, I've enhanced it.
The cost of removing some lichen is far outweighed by the value it brings to an area kept wild.
Without that value, political constraint will fade, and sooner or later, those lands that yield other resources will get ravaged for those resources. Don't believe that can happen? The State already has peculiar loopholes to destroy wilderness for things like Olympic venues and ski resorts. These aren't even economically profitable; they're just pets of a significant number of politicians. When the economy gets bad enough, those real resources are gonna look very enticing, and starving citizens will be willing to do whatever it takes to put food on the table, even if that means cutting forests and digging ore.
Human interaction is part of the equation; not the problem. If you really worship untrammeled wilderness, stay out of it. Otherwise, recognize that your level of acceptable use may encroach on someone else's - and vice versa. Learn to live, or at least see, outside your own perceptual box.
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Old 08-24-2010, 10:33 AM   #44
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We can't enter the woods w/o leaving a mark. ...
I say the question is prejudiced: it assumes human intrusion is bad.
As has been repeatedly acknowledged, we all have an impact. There is a difference between the incidental impact we all have, and deliberately altering the landscape for our own use, which most of us know is wrong and refrain from doing.

What happens if we all decide that we have the right to 'enhance the value of the wilderness' like you think you do? Who are you to decide that the value of climbing that boulder outweighs the value others might derive from seeing the vegetation that clings to it? Are climbers the only people entitled to break the rules on state land to make their lives a bit easier, or are we all entitled to do the same? Am I entitled to cut myself a campsite, or leave my trash in the woods because I don't feel like carrying it out?
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Old 08-24-2010, 11:20 AM   #45
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As has been repeatedly acknowledged, we all have an impact. There is a difference between the incidental impact we all have, and deliberately altering the landscape for our own use
I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between the two, as it relates to this discussion. This may have been touched on already, but are you classifying trails, trailheads, and trailhead parking lots as incidental impact?
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Old 08-24-2010, 11:47 AM   #46
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I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between the two, as it relates to this discussion. This may have been touched on already, but are you classifying trails, trailheads, and trailhead parking lots as incidental impact?
The DEC, acting in the interest of us all and the preservation of the Forest Preserve, creates infrastructure and does things that no private individual - who will inevitably act in his own self-interest, likely to the detriment of others and the resource - has the right or legal authority to do. DSettahr addressed this on the first page.
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Old 08-24-2010, 04:02 PM   #47
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It's one thing to think no matter what we do leaves a trace of some sort...Vibram soled footprints, fire rings...there's alot of involuntary impact..how you erradicate your fecies....but alot of what we do can be boiled down to common sense...the less impact you make the better....don't leave anything behind that a CSI nit-wit would pick up on.....that's how I think when I camp.....when I leave it I don't want any trace of myself or my DNA that would make me liable for being there....guarantee you...anywhere I go there is less evidence of me or anyone before me being on the grounds that I tread upon....this practice would improve all activities and give people a better attitude.....nothing makes me feel sorrier or angrier than someone or a group that made a bad statement...with crap they left behind"that I've been here...had some fun....but I really don't care about it" That thinking I just have no tolerance for and I am tired of running into it,
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Old 08-24-2010, 06:21 PM   #48
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nothing removes DNA like a wirebrush.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:18 PM   #49
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nothing removes DNA like a wirebrush.
Just trying to say we don't have leave all that impact that some people say we do. All we have to do is just be there, do what we came for and go away...There doesn't have to be a lot of evidence left behind in the process...You can be in the wilderness without leaving a tatoo that you've been there...it's easy if you try.

It's a practice I apply no matter what I am doing out there....Unless you're a pure bred Bloodhound or an Apache tracker you can't tell where I've been.
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:55 PM   #50
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nothing removes DNA like a wirebrush.
Bleach. Also does interesting things to moss & lichens
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