Marcellus Shale: An Environmental Disaster In The Making

[fisher39]

Originally Posted by sp_nyp

From Candor, NY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEtgvwllNpg

I am not saying what caused it to happen - just pointing out the video.

At one family member's place in central NY, you can ignite the first bit of air that comes out of the garden hose when you turn the faucet on, and at other family member's places in the area the water stinks like sulfur and leaves you with a slimy feeling after you get out of the shower. None of these places are near gas wells, but that isn't to say drilling wouldn't aggravate the problem.

My guess is that gas production will end up being - like most things - neither a disaster nor a panacea. As far as fossil fuels go, natural gas is the most environmentally friendly, and ultimately I think it would be best for it to be produced in our own backyard where we have plenty of people keeping a very close and skeptical eye on production and its consequences.

[Paradox6]

SP NYP - Thanks for the link. Anybody see any info on whether or not he had any kind of analysis of the water for the type of contamination?

[sp_nyp]

Originally Posted by Paradox6

SP NYP - Thanks for the link. Anybody see any info on whether or not he had any kind of analysis of the water for the type of contamination?

The guy's address is in the video - you could probably call him up and find out if you really wanted to know.

[Hobbitling]

Well, for a little perspective, even these admittedly left wing environmental groups aren't saying "no drilling at all". They just want proper regulation, full disclosure, and some basic research and fact finding before we let these companies punch holes every square mile and start pumping stuff down there, some of which is going to come back up and require disposal. It's hard to be encouraged when the contents of this fluid are a secret.

the fact is, we don't know what they're pumping down there, and we don't know what's coming back up, and we don't know how to dispose of it. And no offense (really), but a guy on a forum saying "it's just guar gum, like in salad dressing, plus some other stuff", doesn't count as full disclosure. It's when industrial interests resist regulation and disclosure that I start to wonder what they're hiding. Got nothing to hide? Good, then open your books and let us monitor the process.

Heres what I think the relevant quote is:

The state took its 13 samples -- 11 of which significantly exceeded legal limits [of radiation]-- between October 2008 and April 2009. The DEC did not respond to questions about whether additional sampling has begun or whether the state would begin issuing drilling permits before the radioactivity issues are resolved. The DEC told ProPublica it did not know where the wastewater would be treated.

the fact that DEC reports aren't even addressing issues of radioactivity in wastewater before issuing permits is very troubling to me. What point is testing the water if the data isn't actually used in the decision making process?

[WinterWarlock]

Originally Posted by hobbitling

well, for a little perspective, even these admittedly left wing environmental groups aren't saying "no drilling at all". They just want proper regulation, full disclosure, and some degree of accountability before we punch holes every square mile and start pumping stuff down there. It's hard to be encouraged when the contents of this fluid are a secret. And no offense (really), but a guy on a forum saying "it's just guar gum, like in salad dressing, plus some other stuff", doesn't count as full disclosure.

It's when industrial interests resist regulation and disclosure that I start to wonder what they're hiding. Got nothing to hide? Good, then open your books and let us monitor the process.

Or to put it in simpler terms, "No Once-lers!"

[Hobbitling]

huh?

[Paradox6]

Hobbitling - Could have saved myself a lot of time if I had just tagged these.:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complet..._and_gas_wells)
This is not new technology, my experiences were in the late 70's and early 80's, much of the info was in petroleum engineering texts, including the chemistry. There are a number of contractors who do this work: BJ Services, Schlumberger had a division that did this, there were others. They compete for the work and are a little reluctant to just give up their design and proprietary info to their competitors. It's been too long for me to remember details as far as the additives. Some of their marketing materials talked about the products used and they sure listed everything they sold on their bills. Oil companies in areas newly developed don't immediately share a lot of the info and their contractors respect that, they take all of the risk to make the investment to drill the wells, could be a a few million on some wells, and the info will help them determine where they will lease or drill next. There are a lot of oil companies competing for the acreage and where to drill next and you don't give that up, any more than Macy's told Gimbels.

[fisher39]

Originally Posted by Paradox6

They compete for the work and are a little reluctant to just give up their design and proprietary info to their competitors.

A-ha! I too was wondering why there wasn't "full disclosure" - competitive reasons seems like a very reasonable explanation. Thanks.

[colden46]

Food manufacturers are required to list all the ingredients in their products, yet there still seems to be plenty of competition in that industry... and just like the food industry, surely there's more to creating these concoctions than just an ingredients list? Relative quantities, preparation, method of use, etc?

[fisher39]

Originally Posted by colden46

Food manufacturers are required to list all the ingredients in their products, yet there still seems to be plenty of competition in that industry... and just like the food industry, surely there's more to creating these concoctions than just an ingredients list? Relative quantities, preparation, method of use, etc?

True, too! That seems like a reasonable requirement. I don't think anyone would appreciate some sort of 'secret sauce' getting pumped down into their aquifer.

[Holdstrong]

Originally Posted by Paradox6

They compete for the work and are a little reluctant to just give up their design and proprietary info to their competitors.

. . .

There are a lot of oil companies competing for the acreage and where to drill next and you don't give that up, any more than Macy's told Gimbels.

If these oil companies were selling clip on ties and bad sweaters I wouldn't care how or where they did it.

In matters of public health and the environment, however, I think disclosure and oversight are reasonable.

[Paradox6]

Colden - The general information is out in the open. The chemistry is the chemistry. Might have to look for it. But even Heinz doesn't list all of the "spices and flavorings" or their proportions or the specifics when they come up with a new process, and Coke will never disclose what is in the syrup. Once you disclose things like the volumes, depths, pressures, etc used in a specific job, you've told your competitor service companies what they generally need to do to design a competitive process. You've also given away info about your customer's well information that ends up in the hands of their competitors. I don't know what New York's process is, but we had to file completion reports with the regulatory authorities when the well was done, describing what was done. If the well was an infill well, within an established field, disclosure is generally not a problem. But if your drilling a step-out well, away from what was thought to be the original trend or a wildcat, away from any established production, or in a new region where development is spotty, you drilled the well "tight," meaning no one, contractors, drilling rig crew,... breathed a word about your well until you released the info. If I recall correctly, you could file an interim completion report for a limited time indicating the well was "tight." The purpose was to give you time to evaluate additional prospects and make your deals.

Holdstrong - Hopefully, the operators (producers) are reporting whatever the regulations require. If they are not they should be held accountable. If the regulations don't require enough information to satisfy the agency's information needs, change the regulations. If you change the regulations in a manner where it becomes easier for a producer to do business somewhere else, be thankful for the cheap sweaters.

[colden46]

Originally Posted by Paradox6

Colden - The general information is out in the open. The chemistry is the chemistry. Might have to look for it. But even Heinz doesn't list all of the "spices and flavorings" or their proportions or the specifics when they come up with a new process, and Coke will never disclose what is in the syrup. Once you disclose things like the volumes, depths, pressures, etc used in a specific job, you've told your competitor service companies what they generally need to do to design a competitive process.

I wasn't asking for specifics of the process, or proportions, or anything like that. What I was trying to say is that disclosure of a simple list of ingredients in Oreos won't allow me to make Oreos. I would still need to know how much of each thing to put it, when to add each ingredient, how to cook them, etc etc. An actual recipe, in other words. Likewise, it doesn't seem very onerous to me to require a list of substances these companies put into the ground. If that's already being disclosed as you seem to say, then good. (I've never looked into it, I was just responding to what others posted)

All I know is that I have a well, and I would sure want to know what is being injected into the same ground my water comes out of. If it means I have to pay a few bucks more to heat my house, so be it.

[Paradox6]

Colden - I understand the concern. We rely on the govt to understand the science and develop regs for what has to be disclosed, and while I haven't done any oil and gas work in NY, I've never known NY to be a slackard about writing regulations. I don't have a dog in this fight. Not every non-disclosure means something sinister is going on. Most of the big contractors have strict confidentiality requirements for their people and will never talk about a customer's business, they leave it to the customer/producer. Not justifying the practice, just explaining why they do it.

[Paradox6]

Hobbitling - Colden - I hit wikipedia for the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guar_gum and googled Brady sand and came up with this:http://www.halliburton.com/public/pe...Web/H03562.pdf The basic info is out there in the public domain. Sorry I can't be more exhaustive. Gotta get to work.

[WinterWarlock]

Originally Posted by Paradox6

Hobbitling - Colden - I hit wikipedia for the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guar_gum and googled Brady sand and came up with this:http://www.halliburton.com/public/pe...Web/H03562.pdf The basic info is out there in the public domain. Sorry I can't be more exhaustive. Gotta get to work.

And herein lies part of the problem, but because while there probably isn't anything sinister going on, as you mentioned in your previous post, once Halliburton's name comes up the debate changes, because they haven't been the best of citizens in recent years. Not saying they're doing anything wrong at all, but their credibility has been questionable at best. So I think one can see where some of the concern comes from.

[Paradox6]

Help!! Dick!! Help!! Hobbittling, quite appropriately, challenges one of my posts. In an effort to repair my honor, (and to share some info with Colden46) I spent 5 minutes Googling and Wikipedi-ing, came up with 4 reference links, which I cut and pasted to a new post, one of which included the dreaded “H-word.” Our heretofore vigilant MODERATOR, throws me under the bus and into the epicenter of “That Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.”

I was trying to show them a picture and a description of SAND. I’ve held it in my hands, I’ve rolled it between my fingers, I wrote checks for millions of pounds of it. I don’t know what else I can do.

If we are going to have a conspiracy, can we at least have one that has something for everybody?…like…

The Great Adirondack Conspiracy

Did you know?...The Crown Point Bridge really isn’t broke…. It was closed….By the CIA….To stop an attack on the Adirondacks, by a small, but dedicated, band of space invaders, hidden at a secret camp, located in the remote reaches of the dark and foreboding Green Mountains. They were sent here, diverted from Area 51, by Emporer Mork and Queen Mindy, the maternal grandparents of the alien love-child of John Edwards, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men (and aliens) are created equal, on the tarmac of LAX, during a haircut, in retaliation for the quashing of the planned nuptials by his running mate.

This was not their first attempt. The first attack was planned and directed, based upon outdated and inept intelligence, by their evil vice-president. It was thwarted when their submarine, disguised as a green dinosaur, was spotted by a patriotic, but vigilant, (and seriously over the limit) 7 year-old, who was on Bulwagga Bay, market fishing for perch for a Canadian cat food company.

The Proof….is in an aluminum Halliburton briefcase. Stolen from Howie Mandel. (And you thought those were earth women.) The briefcase was hidden by Karl Rove in a box of papers, under Hillary Clinton’s bed, where they remain.

The entire black operation was financed out of a secret fund, it had to be created in such a manner as to protect an incumbent governor facing a tough re-election campaign, so that the ultimate costs were largely borne by his upstate residents, thereby protecting his downstate constituencies. (You didn’t really think trout stamps were for trout.)

As our beloved Blue Line faces its darkest hour………

Where, oh where……….is Redhawk?

Have I left anybody out?

[sp_nyp]

I knew that trout stamp sounded 'fishy'

[colden46]

Originally Posted by Paradox6

Last edited by Paradox6; Today at 01:34 PM.. Reason: typo

I'm amused that in a post that contained the words "emperor mork" you were worried about a typo, haha

Originally Posted by backwoodsman

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s..._gas_lies.html

I was at a friends house a few weeks ago,we were sitting out in the shop talking when this guy comes walking in,he was from the gas company.He talked real fast,said this was his last stop,talked about how much money could be potentially made by letting them on the land,but the paper work would need to be signed that night because that was his last stop and he was heading back to Cleveland.He was politely turned down several times until he finally left.
After he left we talked about it.My friend is a farmer,he said it was kinda like playing the lottery,he wasn't interested in it because he wouldn't have to work for it and he didn't want to left with the problems they would leave.
I left there feeling lucky to have these folks as my neighbors and friends.

Great post, BW.....it's nice to know small town America is still alive & well and there's somethings alot more precious than the "green back dollar"...people with principles & values.....a rare commodity these days & times....Thanks for posting that.....makes me feel like it's not all lost yet....& there might even be some hope....