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Old 08-02-2017, 08:41 PM   #21
Justin
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Yes those tourist from 2 towns over spending their money on natural light
...and beer & ammo.
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Old 08-02-2017, 09:21 PM   #22
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I had a flat tire on Powley-Piseco Road once and although it wasn't a big deal, a number campers offered to help and kept us company. From what I understand Stratford has bigger issues at Stewart's Dam.
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:47 AM   #23
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Yeah sorry Bounder, I couldn't resist throwing that out there.
I know we disagree on what's best for the Boreas Ponds, and I'm just a little concerned that similar things will inevitably start happening there as well, as they do in many other areas with easy access throughout the Adks, not to mention the legitimate threat to the native trout species. It'd be nice to think that those bad things would never happen at Boreas Ponds, and everything would be strickly regulated & enforced and eveything kept all hunky-dory, but I have little faith that will end up being the case with an already understaffed enforcement presence in some of these areas that have easy access, and where things like this incident often occur. Thinking positive, and as long as it brings in the money then it's all good I guess.
What's wrong with the trout species in the ADK's and how does the presence of one road near a lake affect their overall health?
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:58 AM   #24
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What's wrong with the trout species in the ADK's and how does the presence of one road near a lake affect their overall health?
I was referring to the native trout species in Boreas Ponds, and if the public was able to drive right to its shores, I fear that it would be detrimental, not only for that, but for other reasons as well that often occur similar to this discussion along easy access roads like the Powely Piseco Rd.

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Old 08-06-2017, 10:14 AM   #25
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What's wrong with the trout species in the ADK's and how does the presence of one road near a lake affect their overall health?
You're not serious, are you?
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:48 PM   #26
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I was referring to the native trout species in Boreas Ponds, and if the public was able to drive right to its shores, I fear that it would be detrimental, not only for that, but for other reasons as well that often occur similar to this discussion along easy access roads like the Powely Piseco Rd.
Sorry to change the subject but I went to Boreas Ponds today. Expected a crowd. Four cars at 9am, eight at 2pm. Seven signed the trail register. Saw 14 people, plus two of us. Only two signed the register on Saturday. There's more to the situation than the three-mile hike. You can't go to the place where the old lodge is, at least if you obey the No Trespassing signs, which we did. We didn't hike up to the north end of the lake so maybe that had more to offer. I will say the difference between the three-plus miles of road you drive in and that which you walk is obvious.

But overall, my assessment is that if people aren't using this place on a perfect hiking day like today, when will they under the current set-up? I can't imagine what it'd be like at seven miles from Blue Ridge Road. I'm sure all the High Peaks parking lots were jammed today.
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Old 08-07-2017, 06:28 AM   #27
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I went to Boreas Ponds today....

...Saw 14 people, plus two of us.

...overall, my assessment is that if people aren't using this place on a perfect hiking day like today, when will they under the current set-up?

I'm sure all the High Peaks parking lots were jammed today.


14 people isn't enough people for you to see in one day?
It should be overcrowded & "jammed" like the High Peaks instead?

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Old 08-07-2017, 10:03 AM   #28
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I was referring to the native trout species in Boreas Ponds, and if the public was able to drive right to its shores, I fear that it would be detrimental
All I'm seeing here is vague rhetoric. There are healthy trout populations in any number of lakes in the ADK's (and throughout the state), many of them with road access right up to the water's edge. In fact, there is a solid argument to be made that with road access, the DEC has a better opportunity to monitor, manage, and, if necessary, restock the bodies of water in that area.

So unless you can give me specific reasons for how better access to Boreas would be detrimental to the native trout, I'm inclined to agree that you're

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But overall, my assessment is that if people aren't using this place on a perfect hiking day like today, when will they under the current set-up? I can't imagine what it'd be like at seven miles from Blue Ridge Road. I'm sure all the High Peaks parking lots were jammed today.
This comment pretty much mirrors my sentiments. If you close off the road access, you're limiting where most people will be able to go during a weekend vacation or hunting trip. I'd rather have the option to drive in a little bit further so that I can spend less time walking along a clearly defined forest road and more time exploring the areas off the beaten path.

IMO, the most interesting areas of the ADK's are places like Cedar River Road (Moose River Plains WF) and Stillwater Road; the fact that you can drive so far into what are otherwise hard-to-reach areas means that when you dismount to hike, camp, fish or hunt, you feel much more removed from civilization....unlike any number of trailheads along Rte 28 (or another main travel corridor) which are jammed pack with cars and people during the warmer months.
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:48 PM   #29
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But overall, my assessment is that if people aren't using this place on a perfect hiking day like today, when will they under the current set-up? I can't imagine what it'd be like at seven miles from Blue Ridge Road. I'm sure all the High Peaks parking lots were jammed today.

I wonder how much of that has to do with awareness. I have a feeling traffic will grow over time as more casual hikers find out about it.
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:29 PM   #30
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14 people isn't enough people for you to see in one day?
It should be overcrowded & "jammed" like the High Peaks instead?
Actually I was pleasantly surprised. But my point is that in the debate over opening Gulf Brook Road or closing it, many who support the closure have said it would see significant use from the serious hiking crowd. I don't think you could get a better summer hiking day than yesterday. We decided to go at the last minute and I was really surprised at the lack of usage. It may work out as a hunting spot after all.
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:38 PM   #31
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... I was really surprised at the lack of usage.
Gotcha, thanks Buck.
Not sure if I'd consider 16 visitors in one day as a "lack of usage", but it's good to hear different perspectives.
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:24 PM   #32
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[QUOTE=Bounder45;261160]All I'm seeing here is vague rhetoric. There are healthy trout populations in any number of lakes in the ADK's (and throughout the state), many of them with road access right up to the water's edge. In fact, there is a solid argument to be made that with road access, the DEC has a better opportunity to monitor, manage, and, if necessary, restock the bodies of water in that area.

So unless you can give me specific reasons for how better access to Boreas would be detrimental to the native trout, I'm inclined to agree that you're

Little Tupper lake had a wonderful heritage strain of brook trout until access was opened up. Bait fish and bass were introduced. The fishery suffered.

If you enjoy drive up fishing for stocked fish then I guess it doesn't matter.
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Old 08-08-2017, 05:24 AM   #33
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Gotcha, thanks Buck.
Not sure if I'd consider 16 visitors in one day as a "lack of usage", but it's good to hear different perspectives.
I guess it's all relative to other places I've been in recent weeks, most of which were crazy busy. I just assumed Boreas would be the same.

Our most interesting human encounters there were a kid who almost ran us over on a bike because he was messing with his phone. And a guy taking a dump in the woods on the other side of the bridge by the dam. About half the people we saw were on bikes and one guy was carrying in a Hornbeck.

Again, I'm sorry to lead this discussion away from the original topic.
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Old 08-08-2017, 07:42 AM   #34
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Again, I'm sorry to lead this discussion away from the original topic.
Pretty sure that was my fault, in my poor attempt to point out some of the unpleasantness that is often associated with easy access like the Powley Piseco Road. I have been through there several times, and every single time I've encountered something that had pissed me off. I've encountered similar things in other areas of the Adks with easy access like the HRSMA, Lily Pond, Crane Pond, Goose Pond, Cheney Pond, Cedar River Flow, Dacy Clearing, Shelving Rock, Harrisburg Lake Road, Hillenbrant Vly, Nine Corner Lake, Fawn Lake, Rock Lake, Sargent Ponds, the Route 8 campsites along the East Branch Sacandaga, just to name a few examples from my own experiences. Call it rhetorical if you wish, but it truly is why I fear for similar results if easier access is granted to Boreas Ponds...

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Old 08-08-2017, 09:16 AM   #35
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Little Tupper lake had a wonderful heritage strain of brook trout until access was opened up. Bait fish and bass were introduced. The fishery suffered.

If you enjoy drive up fishing for stocked fish then I guess it doesn't matter.
And yet there are lakes (Blue Mt Lake being one example out of many) that have a decent trout population despite the drive-up access. And there are other lakes and ponds with foot-only access in the West Canada Lake Wilderness and Moose River Plains WF where the native fish have suffered or been wiped out.

Road access doesn't necessarily mean the native fish populations are going to suffer; there are other environmental factors at play in some of those instances.

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Pretty sure that was my fault, in my poor attempt to point out some of the unpleasantness that is often associated with easy access like the Powley Piseco Road. I have been through there several times, and every single time I've encountered something that had pissed me off. I've encountered similar things in other areas of the Adks with easy access like the HRSMA, Lily Pond, Crane Pond, Goose Pond, Cheney Pond, Cedar River Flow, Dacy Clearing, Shelving Rock, Harrisburg Lake Road, Hillenbrant Vly, Nine Corner Lake, Fawn Lake, Rock Lake, Sargent Ponds, the Route 8 campsites along the East Branch Sacandaga, just to name a few examples
And yet when you advocate that we take away dirt/gravel road access to the more remote parts of the ADK's, you're in essence demanding that the public remain mostly confined to the main, paved, travel corridors and trailheads (Rte 28, Rte 30, ect.). And it's along those areas that I often see the more egregious of issues: congestion; noise; unprepared visitors; uncontrolled dogs; trash.

The thing of it is Justin is that I think you and I are more alike than either of us care to admit; I enjoy the solitude and unknown of the deep woods, whether it be for hunting, hiking or camping. I enjoy a quick jaunt up Blue Mountain, but I can only convince myself to do it during a weekday or a very early morning weekend hike; at the height of the summer season, that place (and others like it) is just too overcrowded and I don't enjoy the experience as much. On other hand, I can drive down Cedar River Road almost any day of the week where I might only see a few cars, if any at all, at the numerous trailheads and I can enjoy some truly remote areas all by myself. Because, despite the easy access, a lot of people don't want or don't think to go down that nondescript road and it just doesn't see as much traffic as the main corridors. There might be a few pieces of trash here and there (which I pick up) and there might be a few noisy campsites (mostly at the Cedar Flow dam) but it's not nearly as bad as the more 'tame' trailheads and car campsites along Rte 28. Plus, you can drive past that area to any number of additional campsites and trailheads which, for the most part, stay empty and quiet throughout the season.

So yes, I advocate that we keep the road open a little bit further into Boreas precisely because it gives people like you and me a better opportunity to escape the main crowds and go explore the more remote areas of the ADK's. Despite the many disagreements and you and I have on this topic, I actually enjoy wilderness (both the lands that are literally classified as such and those that I consider as such based on their location). I just think there should be common sense regulations that allow us to get into the wilderness.

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Old 08-08-2017, 10:01 AM   #36
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Fair enough, thanks Bounder. In the words of the late great Guy Clark..."Adios to all this concrete, gonna' get me some dirt road back street."
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Old 08-08-2017, 09:58 PM   #37
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[QUOTE=Bounder45;261187]And yet there are lakes (Blue Mt Lake being one example out of many) that have a decent trout population despite the drive-up access. And there are other lakes and ponds with foot-only access in the West Canada Lake Wilderness and Moose River Plains WF where the native fish have suffered or been wiped out.

Road access doesn't necessarily mean the native fish populations are going to suffer; there are other environmental factors at play in some of those instances.



I would like to continue this discussion but it seems to have drifted from the original post. However, I would just like to say that comparing BML to Boreas Ponds is like comparing apples to oranges.

Another time, another post..........
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:53 PM   #38
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And yet there are lakes (Blue Mt Lake being one example out of many) that have a decent trout population despite the drive-up access. And there are other lakes and ponds with foot-only access in the West Canada Lake Wilderness and Moose River Plains WF where the native fish have suffered or been wiped out.

Road access doesn't necessarily mean the native fish populations are going to suffer; there are other environmental factors at play in some of those instances.

.
Bounder,
I hope you aren't naive enough to think that you're catching wild brook trout from BML, they're stocked every year. I guess I don't understand your argument, are you saying that because acid rain killed remote ponds (and not so remote ponds) that Boreas ponds should have roadside access? Oh, and I beg to differ on your statement that a wild brook trout population would not suffer from roadside access. This article uses statistics to prove that easy access would very likely cause the loss of Boreas ponds' wild brook trout: http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/...s#.WYs67VGGOUk
So why would any fisherman want road access to this place? I think advocating for strict protections of this wild (maintained by natural spawning, not stocked) trout population should be a priority for sportsmen/women.
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Old 08-11-2017, 11:58 AM   #39
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Bounder,
I hope you aren't naive enough to think that you're catching wild brook trout from BML, they're stocked every year. I guess I don't understand your argument, are you saying that because acid rain killed remote ponds (and not so remote ponds) that Boreas ponds should have roadside access?
I understand that many lakes in the ADK's get artificially stocked with fish. A lot of that has to do with the DEC wanting to ensure that there are viable, robust populations that won't be over-harvested. In fact, that is a fairly common conservation practice across much of North America.

And yes, your point on acid rain is exactly what I'm getting at. There are plenty of remote lakes and ponds (foot access only) that have seen fish populations suffer or die out completely for a variety of reasons. This idea that road access will automatically kill off all the fish in Boreas ponds is naive. Boreas has had road access for the past several decades, with some use by leased hunting/fishing camps if I'm not mistaken.

Can you explain to me the added risk there is with letting people drive right up to the water (or to within a few hundred feet) versus making them walk several miles before dropping in a boat? Either way, the area is going to get fished and foreign objects will be put in the water, and the DEC will likely have to manage and potentially restock the water to accommodate the use by fishermen. I wouldn't be surprised if the area had been restocked in years past in order to accommodate the people who had access to the area.
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:01 PM   #40
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Can you explain to me the added risk there is with letting people drive right up to the water (or to within a few hundred feet) versus making them walking several miles before dropping in a boat?
I believe the point was that vehicular access would make it easier to destroy a habitat and might make it happen faster.
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